Curious about accident statistics

[android]

I would understand that from a numbers stand point, and it certainly holds true from my observations. But does the methodology actually breed more incidents due to their lack of stressing REAL risks? I am sure you and I know who I am thinking about.

I'm pretty sure I got my OW training from "who you are thinking about" and the risks are certainly explained. I think what to stress is a function of the instructor. Our instructor made us very aware of the fact that we could die, get bent and be permanently injured under water.

He also made it clear that bouyancy control is of prime importance.

But, I don't know how any agency can consistently monitor and enforce the attitude of individual instructors and what they choose to emphasize.

 

[icyman]

That's an incredibily big claim! Are you saying that no SSI diver, anywhere in the world, has ever died diving?? I don't see how a statistic like that could be substantiated.

I am just not aware of any in the last 5 years. I also spoke with a representative of SSI and they weren't aware of any fatalities involving an SSI certified diver either. I called DAN to see what they said, but of course they must call me back.

As for being substantiated, I don't know either and I am not worried about doing so. My interest here is to discuss or help fix a growing trend of diving accidents. If SSI has such a good record, why do they? Is there something they are doing in their training other groups are passsing up? All in All I don't care who has the best record, I am just wondering if SSI or some other organization does have such a great record, can we as dive professionals learn from that record? I think I could.

 

[icyman]

From the agency point of view small changes in training could make a big difference in how easy it is to make instructors, I guess. I'd bet real money that if you take the top 2 or 3 topics that I critisize training for being lacking in that many many instructors would not be able to explain those principles to you. For example gas management. Some agencies don't teach it in a meaningful way including at the instructor level. Trim and buyancy control while managing any other task would be another. It's often not taught and not required even at the instructor levels.

I don't need statistics to prove that being proficient in some skills makes diving more fun and safer.

Statistics do make a good defense for the agencies and it's all pretty convincing to those who don't know any better.

A very good post and I agree with what you are saying. My whole purpose in the thread that we are seeing more and more fatalities each year, and I wonder what is changing other than the fact more divers are getting in the water. I have witnessed MANY different organizations training and I am certified by several groups as well. My intention isn't to point a finger, but to discuss and try to help. If one agency Does as reported to me have a flawless record, then why? Couldn't we all learn from them IF they do? I certainly could!

 

[pt40fathoms]

SSI trained divers have never had fatal accidents, PADI trained divers have?

A growing trend?

I smell yet another PADI bashing troll. Getting just a little sick and tired of this garbage.

 

[icyman]

SSI trained divers have never had fatal accidents, PADI trained divers have?

A growing trend?

I smell yet another PADI bashing troll. Getting just a little sick and tired of this garbage.

Your reading something in that I did not say. I was merely asking a question for us to discuss, I couldn't care less about the pety bashing that occurs here. When speaking about SSI, the only name I brought up by the way, I was stating what I had been told. No where else did I bring up any names of PADI, NAUI, or any other certification agency. Try adding some substance to the discussion, instead of looking for a fight. That wasn't my intention in this post.

Now back to the subject, for all I know PADI may have a great record too, I was merely asking if anyone knows statistics.

 

[perpet1]

I am just not aware of any in the last 5 years. I also spoke with a representative of SSI and they weren't aware of any fatalities involving an SSI certified diver either. I called DAN to see what they said, but of course they must call me back.

As for being substantiated, I don't know either and I am not worried about doing so. My interest here is to discuss or help fix a growing trend of diving accidents. If SSI has such a good record, why do they? Is there something they are doing in their training other groups are passsing up? All in All I don't care who has the best record, I am just wondering if SSI or some other organization does have such a great record, can we as dive professionals learn from that record? I think I could.

You said it yourself "that you are aware of". The porblem with diving is that there are no reporting requirements for acidents. That is to say that there is no way to get real data because the agencies will not release numbers that do not make them look good. Sure you have to report a problem if it occurs during training and you may even be taken to court for something that happens after BUT do you really think these occurances will be made available to the public?

All agencies (even SSI) will do everything they can not to report on major accidents. Especially if they occur after the individual was trained. As for DAN, they are a ggreat agency BUT they can only report on what is reported to them. And even so, most of the details may be left out if the family does not want to

 

[asmith5]

IMO, There are too many variables involved in diving to blame it on one certification, instructor, or person. No one dive at the same location is going to be the same. Water conditions, weather, etc are always playing a role. What is normally a safe dive could easily become a dangerous dive if the wind picks up. Instructors can teach you everything they know about safety, but a single brain fart in even the most experienced divers could lead to injury or death. Once you are a certified OW diver, you are basically taking your safety into your own hands. You certification means that you have shown your ability to perform the skills required to dive safely. It is entirely in your hands to follow the safety rules and skills that you were taught in your classes. I would be willing to bet that almost all diving accidents are the result of either health problems, or diver error. The fact is that diving can be dangerous. If you don't take care of your health and dive irresponsibly, you might not live to dive again. I am PADI OW certified and I had safety drilled into my head throughout my classes. I can't blame anyone but myself if I have a problem. It is even hard to blame equipment failure because we were trained to always dive with a buddy and have been trained and had to demonstrate our ability to share air in the event of an OOA situation. My only fear would be the loss of a weight belt and the resulting rocketship ride to the surface.

Sorry for the long post. I don't think the avenue of training has as much to do with accidents as do the individual circumstances affecting the diver. We are out of our element underwater even when experienced. My theory is that the minute I become overconfident in the water is the minute that I end my diving career. That is when I will be most likely to make a mistake. I love diving, so I am going to make sure that I don't reach that stage.

JMO,
Andrew

 

[DBailey]

As opposed to looking for statistics regarding the training agencies, I would be more interested in a breakdown based on diver experience (i.e. number of dives). At some point in one's diving career, one's diving experience will count more than which agency initially issued the c-card.

Perhaps a breakdown like:

Accidents during certification (dives 1-4)
Dives 5-20
Dives 21-100
Dives 100-500
Dives 500+

Time to do a search, since typing this has sparked some more interest.

 

[TCDiver1]

My whole purpose in the thread that we are seeing more and more fatalities each year, and I wonder what is changing other than the fact more divers are getting in the water.

Not true, at least not for US and Canadian residents. But don't believe me, sign up with DAN to read the reports yourself. I'd be happy to give you a link to DAN if you like.

The records collected by DAN, that do exist from 1970 through 2002, clearly show the number of fatalities a year is on a downward trend. From a high of 147 around 1976 to a low of 67 around 1991. The average is currently hovering around 90 per year.

What this means is highly debatable but it does shown a downward trend in fatalities for this sampling. I'm not aware of any other report or study that shows anything different. So everything else is just conjecture.

 

[diveaussie]

I am curious, has anyone ever done statistics on the certifying agency of divers to see if there is a trend? Maybe there is something in the way certain agencies teach, just a thought?

Not sure about this but you can go to the DAN website and pull up stats on diving accidents and fatalities, perhaps they could best direct you.