Criminally negligent homicide?/Scuba Instructor Faces Charges (merged threads)

[RonFrank]

No, it is not. We did doff/don 25+ years ago, but not anymore. No level of recreational PADI instruction uses it now.

I can not speak for now, but this was not true five years ago. When I was doing OW, we had to remove, and replace our BC's....

I've not read anything that would have changed this, but some instructors do things differently.

 

[Pearldiver07]

I can not speak for now, but this was not true five years ago. When I was doing OW, we had to remove, and replace our BC's....

I've not read anything that would have changed this, but some instructors do things differently.

I believe the doff/don being referenced is not the BCD removal and replacement. This is a skill unto itself.

Unless I am mistaken, this skill, which I did during OW, was that all of my gear was dropped into the deep end of the pool. I jumped in with my boots on, swam down and put all of my gear on while at the bottom.

My instructor explain what he saw as the best method, tips on avoiding issues, and was immediately present during the activity in case I needed to breath off of his octo.

While it increased my personal feelings of accomplishment, I believe that this exercise does not represent any other skill useful in recreational diving, but it does practice applying a problem solving mindset in a "stressful" conditions under water.

I emphasized stressful as this is a relative thing. When doing the equipment swap in the DM course I found it somewhat challenging. But later as an instructor I actually find it fun, and not the least bit stressful.

 

[Hoomi]

Okay, dumb newbie question here, and I'm not asking it with the presumption of what I think you should answer, but because I really want to know from experienced divers.

In the "Doff and Don" exercise, I fully understand the logic of needing to remove gear in order to free it from entanglement in some obstruction on the bottom. What I don't quite understand is the idea of leaving it on the bottom, swim to the surface, then dive back to the bottom for the gear. In my mind, what I'm picturing would be the need to remove the entangled gear, then get the regulator back into the mouth for breathing (and mask-clearing if the mask had to be removed), so that the diver would have the time and air needed to free up the gear and don it again.

Am I missing something here that would require a diver in open water to leave the gear at the bottom to swim to the surface first, and then return for it without any other gear?

 

[Joe-Diver]

I believe the doff/don being referenced is not the BCD removal and replacement. This is a skill unto itself.

Right, I think the 2 are being confused.

Current PADI - Scuba Unit Remove/Replace, both at the surface and underwater. At no time do you lose control of the unit or let it go.

Doff/Don - Take off gear at the bottom, swim to the surface. Dive back down to the bottom and put it back on.

So, PADI just eliminated the surfacing and dive back down.

I had an Instructor back in the early 80's who dropped my tank/reg/bc in the deep end of an olympic size pool, then randomly threw my mask and fins. "Don't come up until you're fully dressed"......By the time I surfaced I was tired, eyes burned, and I was pissed off. The exercise has had absolutely no relevance to my diving of the last 25 years.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Okay, dumb newbie question here, and I'm not asking it with the presumption of what I think you should answer, but because I really want to know from experienced divers.

In the "Doff and Don" exercise, I fully understand the logic of needing to remove gear in order to free it from entanglement in some obstruction on the bottom. What I don't quite understand is the idea of leaving it on the bottom, swim to the surface, then dive back to the bottom for the gear. In my mind, what I'm picturing would be the need to remove the entangled gear, then get the regulator back into the mouth for breathing (and mask-clearing if the mask had to be removed), so that the diver would have the time and air needed to free up the gear and don it again.

Am I missing something here that would require a diver in open water to leave the gear at the bottom to swim to the surface first, and then return for it without any other gear?

The exercise, which is called "scuba ditch and recovery" is intended to teach you the skill of mental discipline ... something which some agencies have concluded isn't needed in scuba diving (I think that it is). The point being that you should learn how to resolve problems calmly while underwater ... and especially if the problem involves you suddenly not having air to breathe. In this exercise, if you try to hurry, you'll never do it. It's counter-intuitive (which is really the point of practicing it) ... because it's only when you calm yourself down, and perform the skill slowly and methodically, that it suddenly becomes simple. Having the self-discipline to work out an issue while OOA may be the difference between resolving it (life) or panicking and bolting for the surface (death). Which do YOU think is the more desirable outcome?

There are a lot of skills that are used in scuba training that are not directly applicable to real-world diving. Counting kick cycles, for example ... when was the last time you actually did that? I'd be willing to be that for about 99.999% of divers, it was when they had to do it in a navigation class.

... and when was the last time you ever had to work on a puzzle or spell your name backwards at 100 feet? When do you think you'll ever have to do that in real-world diving?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Thalassamania]

...While it increased my personal feelings of accomplishment, I believe that this exercise does not represent any other skill useful in recreational diving, but it does practice applying a problem solving mindset in a "stressful" conditions under water.
...

... Am I missing something here that would require a diver in open water to leave the gear at the bottom to swim to the surface first, and then return for it without any other gear?

... I had an Instructor back in the early 80's who dropped my tank/reg/bc in the deep end of an olympic size pool, then randomly threw my mask and fins. "Don't come up until you're fully dressed"......By the time I surfaced I was tired, eyes burned, and I was pissed off. The exercise has had absolutely no relevance to my diving of the last 25 years.

Common responses to the same issue. Let me try and shed some light:

Many training exercises are not simply simulations of things you need to learn to do, they are exercises that are designed to prepare you, physically and mentally for the challenges that you are being trained to face. Amongst the most difficult real world challenges that divers face (and often fail) is not panicking in the face of something that requires significant exertion followed by careful detailed manipulation of an object while not having an air supply available. We use the doff and don to place our students repeatedly in this position, until dealing with it is second nature, and we are able to build a few extra leaning experiences in also.

I firmly believe that a critical skill is the ability to calmly and precisely perform a fine motor skill (e.g., picking up a mask from the bottom, putting it on and clearing it) after performing a strength move (e.g., surface dive to 20 feet against a minimum of 18 lbs of positive buoyancy) whilst holding one's breath.

 

[pir8]

More an exercise in problem solving, like the equipment exchange for PADI DM

 

[Isaac-1]

I did my PADI Instructor training/certification in 1990 and I can tell you at that time there was no official sanctioned PADI skill requirement for an OOA drill surfacing without gear. There was gear removal and replacement underwater, and CESA with all gear and regualtor in the mouth. Chances are your instructor in '91 had been teaching for many years at that time, and was teaching things the same way he had a decade or more before. I am not saying there is anything right or wrong with the OOA drill that has been being discussed, just that is was not part of the official PADI way even in the early '90s.

Ike

p.s. back in 1990 PADI was making a VERY BIG DEAL about how to conduct the CESA so that the instructor maintains hands on control of the student at all times, it was the one skill that had to be preformed by the book in open water. This means a weighted ascent/descent line, instructor with 1 hand gripped firmly on the student's BCD, and one leg wrapped around the line so that by flexing the leg the instructor could halt the ascent at anytime.

This discussion has made me curious about changes in PADI training. I got my PADI OW certification in 1991. We did OOA drills in the pool and on our ocean dives, including surfacing without gear in the pool. In the ocean we did the doff/don exercise without surfacing then surfaced with gear but with the regulator out of our mouths. All the surfacing without a reg was done one on one with the instructor right in front of our faces. Is PADI no longer doing this training or is the decision left to the instructor?

 

[Hoomi]

I can see the point that being compelled to surface and then return adds a time/stress factor to the exercise that can simulate a real-dive situation (say, such as having to swim back around the obstacle to pull the gear backwards to free it).

One other dumb newbie question that is more just curiosity rather than essential to the discussion at hand; since the deeper we go, the denser the air in our lungs. So, if I were running into a situation such as this at, say, 10m where the air is twice as dense, then I have the surface equivalent of two breaths in my lungs. Since the oxygen level in the air is going to remain consistent at 20.9%, despite the pressure, I would also then have the equivalent oxygen of two lungfuls of air, correct? So, as I swim to the surface, releasing air so that the volume in my lungs does not exceed the capacity of my body, even though I'm releasing air all the way up, I can theoretically still reach the surface with a reasonable amount of air - and oxygen - in my lungs, correct? To prevent the embolism, I need to allow the excess air to escape, but not necessarily expel all the air in the lungs (which would make surfacing more difficult anyway, as the air in the lungs improves positive buoyancy).

One other thing just occurred to me that could have a bearing on the subject of doing the "Doff and Don" exercise. The PADI materials stress the rule of NEVER holding your breath while diving. Perhaps in their thinking, the idea of stressing this, and then telling a student to hold their breath while diving to the bottom of the pool in order to retrieve their gear, would undermine that rule.

Personally, I'm open to being taught anything that makes me a safer, more competent diver.

 

[bill-da-ho]

I dont see how in an emergency ascent drill the instructor could possibly be able to stop someone from ascending without releasing air, ok, even if that instructor is face to face with that diver, and they are going up, and she sees that he isnt releasing air, how is she suppose to make him do that? its possible that this person was being supervised completely and still had an accident. I think we all need more info befor passing judgement.
We had a person in our class that couldnt controll her limbs while descending, flailing all over the place, hit me a couple times. Is there something the instructor could have done while it was happening? not really. he did have her continue on with another person further down the pool tho.
Is there a standard for how many students to instructor ration? 20 people in the class does seem excessive for something like scuba. was there assitants? a whole lot we dont know yet