Criminally negligent homicide?/Scuba Instructor Faces Charges (merged threads)

[bill-da-ho]

Yes, at a minimum the Instructor would not have been off somewhere teaching a non-affiliated student on the side. She would have been concentrating on the activities at hand.

Much less likely, if just because of the time avaiable to get students comfortable with being underwater.
But those are the facts, there are less accidents in university based courses than there are in LDS courses (in fact there have been none in over 50 years of running Scripps Model training programs at a large number of institutions).
It is good to find some common ground. But keep in mind that a good instructor (especially at institutions of higher learning) pays special attention to teaching students not just the skill and knowledge objectives but also teaching them how to learn, speeding up what is gained from the experiential learning process.
No one said it was the only environment on earth, or the only learning environment on earth, but if you'd rather take your training, or send your loved ones to be training at your local LDS, so be it ... I'd rather have a real professional educator who not only has met the standards of one of the training agencies, but who has also passed muster through the hiring and retention process, being routinely and systematically reviewed by other professional educators. I simply can not grasp how you can fail to grasp this simple concept. And you talk about real world experience. With respect to diving, could you point out where any LDS instructor would get the real world diving experience to share with his or her students that I've been afforded by the academic diving path? Only by having been in the military or commercial diving worlds first.

Just as an example: my LDS where I recieved my certification, I know of three other LDS' in the area but only know the one where I recieved training, He has over 5000 dives logged, now, lets compare him to say someone who just recieved their degree, and only has even a couple hundred logged dives? who would have more experience? thats all I'm saying. Also, I dont believe for one instance that all LDS' are good, nor all college instructors. I do believe that if you successfully complete your training at either place, you still have got a lot to learn, and that is where I am at. I also dont believe that whether you took your lessons at a college or LDS that accidents or a person panicking cant happen, that is human nature no matter where you recieved your education.
Thal, in your profile it says that you were trained by your father correct? are you saying that that was wrong? You also said you have a son I believe, did you train him, or did he wait till he went to college if he is of that age?
Would I trust the person who trained me to train my son? Yes, I felt he was very thorough and cautious, I did see him not pass one individual, told her he needed to work with her more, but that if she wanted to work with him more, he felt she could get passed her problems. Also, this additional work with that student didnt come at any extra expense, not that I know of anyhow. This particular istructor has been teaching scuba since the late 70's. I dont doubt there are others just as good, with or without a degree. But he is the one that I know of, have had others say very good things about, there is another one 60 miles closer to my home that I chose not to go to, because I had heard bad things about. So, my point is, there are good and bad teachers in college and LDS'. Also, the university that is close to me, they have a scuba class that is part of their PE class. However, you do not get certified by them, its a PE credit only. They dont want the liability is what I heard, but I dont have specific knowledge on that for sure. So, even if I was in a mind to take this course in college, it would have done me no good as far as being able to get tanks filled, because you need the certificate. Otherwise I would have to have driven 400 miles to the next university, and I dont know if they even offer it. So I dont believe you can cut out the LDS, unless the goal is to reduce the number of people who enjoy the sport.

 

[bill-da-ho]

In some instances I agree with you. Then again, how many private SCUBA instructors do you know that have a 50' research vessal at their disposal? Sometimes an academic organization will have resources to enhance the instruction given that most recreational SCUBA instructors only dream about.



Sorry, but you just contridicted yourself. You say the instructor was hired by, not an employee of, so how do you use that as an argument that private recreational SCUBA instructors are superior to college employed certified SCUBA instructors?



Again, I agree with you because the commercial sector is geared to providing the service (SCUBA instruction) for a competitive price in a convenient manner and in convenient period of time. Heck, I could teach someone the basics for safe SCUBA in twenty minutes, but that doesn't meet the standard set by teh SCUBA instruction industry that a court of law will use as the measure of competence.



No, recreational SCUBA does not require a college education. Actually it doesn't even require a high school education. One could probably learn all the necessary skills, techniques and knowledge by discussion and hands on with the equipment. The industry of SCUBA instruction has just set a standard that one must read to aquire the knowlege that SCUBA instruction is based on, and then one must show competence in that knowledge throught a written test.

To teach SCUBA diving without having aquired training and certification from a formal training agency is just asking for trouble and a law suit. That is the premise that most of the people posting on this thread are getting at.

I agree with you 100% about the teaching scuba without having aquired training and certification is asking for trouble. But, as I understand it, You cannot become a PADI instructor without haveing taken instruction on that. Correct me if I"m wrong, but I as a newly certified diver cannot teach and certify students in diving, at least I hope not, because I have not aquired that type of experience or training, and I'd hate to think there are people out there with my level of experience teaching it. I would also hope that instructors would not simply pass someone for having passed a test, college or otherwise, it should be based on their abilities. Thats my opinion anyhow.

 

[Thalassamania]

Just as an example: my LDS where I recieved my certification, I know of three other LDS' in the area but only know the one where I recieved training, He has over 5000 dives logged, now, lets compare him to say someone who just recieved their degree, and only has even a couple hundred logged dives? who would have more experience? thats all I'm saying.

To compare an Instructor who is toward the end of his career to one who is just starting out is specious at best. Given the same time in grade I'd bet on the person teaching at the university. Would I always be right? No. Would I be right almost all of the time? Assuredly.

Also, I dont believe for one instance that all LDS' are good, nor all college instructors. I do believe that if you successfully complete your training at either place, you still have got a lot to learn, and that is where I am at.

I agree, the question on the table though is at what level would I want a loved one turned loose to fend for themselves with a similarly qualified buddy? Would I be more comfortable after 20 hours of LDS based training or 50 hours of university training? Does that question really need to be answered?

I also dont believe that whether you took your lessons at a college or LDS that accidents or a person panicking cant happen, that is human nature no matter where you recieved your education.

Then you'd be wrong. The amount of training and supervised experience that a diver gets has a major effect on their panic threashold. The average LDS student is getting something less that 20 hours of training, the average college course offers about 50 hours. Time counts.

Thal, in your profile it says that you were trained by your father correct? are you saying that that was wrong? You also said you have a son I believe, did you train him, or did he wait till he went to college if he is of that age?

When I "learned" to dive it was very different than today. There was no formal instruction and I already was an avid and capable free diver. Leaning to use scuba was quite anticlimactic.

My teaching my son or having someone else do so has nothing to do with the subject per se but just to be complete: I am training him along slowly. He is a great free diver and his scuba skills are almost where they need to be. When he can complete, to my satisfaction, the exit skills of the Scripps Model Course (which includes a doff and don in full gear, including wetsuit and 3 finger gloves) and can pass the NAUI Instructor theory exams (exclusive of training and NAUI sections) I will then permit him to do a series of checkout dive with one of my colleagues who may (or may not) choose to "certify" him.

I taught more than a few high school students when I was at the university as part of AP programs, so there was not need to "wait until they got to college."

Would I trust the person who trained me to train my son? Yes, I felt he was very thorough and cautious, I did see him not pass one individual, told her he needed to work with her more, but that if she wanted to work with him more, he felt she could get passed her problems. Also, this additional work with that student didnt come at any extra expense, not that I know of anyhow. This particular istructor has been teaching scuba since the late 70's. I dont doubt there are others just as good, with or without a degree. But he is the one that I know of, have had others say very good things about, there is another one 60 miles closer to my home that I chose not to go to, because I had heard bad things about.

On what basis do you judge the quality of an instructor? Strikes me that a casual observation of "thorough and cautious" would hardly fill the bill if it came to my selecting an instructor for a my son. Especially (with all due respect) if it were in a field that I was hardly qualified to judge as to what was and what was not "complete."

So, my point is, there are good and bad teachers in college and LDS'.

Undoubtedly ... but you play the odds, and the odds favor finding higher quality training in an academic setting, in terms of the quality of the instructor and the curriculum of the course.

Also, the university that is close to me, they have a scuba class that is part of their PE class. However, you do not get certified by them, its a PE credit only. They dont want the liability is what I heard, but I dont have specific knowledge on that for sure. So, even if I was in a mind to take this course in college, it would have done me no good as far as being able to get tanks filled, because you need the certificate. Otherwise I would have to have driven 400 miles to the next university, and I dont know if they even offer it. So I dont believe you can cut out the LDS, unless the goal is to reduce the number of people who enjoy the sport.

I have no idea of what the situation is at your local college, there's a reasonable chance that what you'd find there is nothing more than an LDS course (contracted out) with credit charges to boot. It is not my place or wish to argue that every program run on a campus is a great program, but I will state, without any fear of contradiction, that the "best" university programs are so much better than the "best" LDS progams to not even warrant discussion.

 

[bill-da-ho]

To compare an Instructor who is toward the end of his career to one who is just starting out is specious at best. Given the same time in grade I'd bet on the person teaching at the university. Would I always be right? No. Would I be right almost all of the time? Assuredly.
I agree, the question on the table though is at what level would I want a loved one turned loose to fend for themselves with a similarly qualified buddy? Would I be more comfortable after 20 hours of LDS based training or 50 hours of university training? Does that question really need to be answered? Then you'd be wrong. The amount of training and supervised experience that a diver gets has a major effect on their panic threashold. The average LDS student is getting something less that 20 hours of training, the average college course offers about 50 hours. Time counts.
When I "learned" to dive it was very different than today. There was no formal instruction and I already was an avid and capable free diver. Leaning to use scuba was quite anticlimactic.

My teaching my son or having someone else do so has nothing to do with the subject per se but just to be complete: I am training him along slowly. He is a great free diver and his scuba skills are almost where they need to be. When he can complete, to my satisfaction, the exit skills of the Scripps Model Course (which includes a doff and don in full gear, including wetsuit and 3 finger gloves) and can pass the NAUI Instructor theory exams (exclusive of training and NAUI sections) I will then permit him to do a series of checkout dive with one of my colleagues who may (or may not) choose to "certify" him.

I taught more than a few high school students when I was at the university as part of AP programs, so there was not need to "wait until they got to college."
On what basis do you judge the quality of an instructor? Strikes me that a casual observation of "thorough and cautious" would hardly fill the bill if it came to my selecting an instructor for a my son. Especially (with all due respect) if it were in a field that I was hardly qualified to judge as to what was and what was not "complete."
Undoubtedly ... but you play the odds, and the odds favor finding higher quality training in an academic setting, in terms of the quality of the instructor and the curriculum of the course.
I have no idea of what the situation is at your local college, there's a reasonable chance that what you'd find there is nothing more than an LDS course (contracted out) with credit charges to boot. It is not my place or wish to argue that every program run on a campus is a great program, but I will state, without any fear of contradiction, that the "best" university programs are so much better than the "best" LDS progams to not even warrant discussion.

I'll give you this thal, I am not sure what I would find at the university, as I have not had a course in scuba at the university that is close to me, or elsewhere, I do know I would trust this guy with teaching my son. I in no way think I am ultra experienced as I have just been certified. I know I am taking my solo dives slow and trying to gain experience befor I challenge myself to much. I would expect to take my son along the same way. I have nothing else available to me at this point.
One other point I'd like to make, or address is that, you say in an LDS, I recieved about 20 hours of training, I'm not sure it was that much, maybe closer to 15, and that in a university you'd recieve about 50. However, in my class I only had 4 people, in the class where this guy died, it was 20,, that is about 2 1/2 hours per student as compared to 3 1/2 in my class. Now thats not considering the fact that there are assistants either, I'm not sure what a university would have, tho we had one for a period of time on some of our time.
I think as long as there are people learning to dive, there will be accidents, whether it is in an LDS or a university.

 

[Thalassamania]

I'll give you this thal, I am not sure what I would find at the university, as I have not had a course in scuba at the university that is close to me, or elsewhere, I do know I would trust this guy with teaching my son. I in no way think I am ultra experienced as I have just been certified. I know I am taking my solo dives slow and trying to gain experience befor I challenge myself to much. I would expect to take my son along the same way. I have nothing else available to me at this point.

A prudent approach.

One other point I'd like to make, or address is that, you say in an LDS, I recieved about 20 hours of training, I'm not sure it was that much, maybe closer to 15, and that in a university you'd recieve about 50. However, in my class I only had 4 people, in the class where this guy died, it was 20,, that is about 2 1/2 hours per student as compared to 3 1/2 in my class. Now thats not considering the fact that there are assistants either, I'm not sure what a university would have, tho we had one for a period of time on some of our time.

If you had taken your training with me (or at any of the universities I've been involved with) you'd have received in excess of 100 hours of instruction, a minimum of 22 hours of pool work, 12 hours of lecture, 12 hours of recitation, and 22 hours of optional pool practice. In addition you'd have made 12 to 16 open water dives. You'd have worked with four different instruction teams, each composed of a senior and a junior instructor buddy team (we do not dive solo, even staff). Your working team would have been composed two buddy pairs of candidates. You'd only have worked with me and my junior in the pool if you had been ranked at the bottom of the class at one of the team reshufflings or if you'd been ranked at the top of the class prior to the last two openwater dives. Each of your lectures would be delivered by a different expert in the field, in each and every case a seasoned veteran underwater scientist. If you'd been taking the course through extension it would have cost you $520, if you had been a full time student it would have been free. You'd have received a NAUI Rescue Card, a DAN O2 Card, an American Red Cross Professional Rescuer CPR and First Aid Card and a NAUI Advanced Diver Card. Was the deal at your LDS significantly better? On the downside ... you'd need to show up the first day of class with a full set of gear including a 1/4" suit (no tank or regulator) and you'd need to be accepted into the class of 20 candidates, selected from the usually 200 students who are looking for a slot (priority to Faculty, Staff, Grad Students, with a need to do underwater science, then undergrads in science with 4 slots reserved for me to take whoever I felt was in the best interest of the future of the program).

I
I think as long as there are people learning to dive, there will be accidents, whether it is in an LDS or a university.

That's another place where we differ, I accept no accents ... I believe that when it comes to matters of life and death it is possible to run a zero defect environment.

 

[bill-da-ho]

A prudent approach.
If you had taken your training with me (or at any of the universities I've been involved with) you'd have received in excess of 100 hours of instruction, a minimum of 22 hours of pool work, 12 hours of lecture, 12 hours of recitation, and 22 hours of optional pool practice. In addition you'd have made 12 to 16 open water dives. You'd have worked with four different instruction teams, each composed of a senior and a junior instructor buddy team (we do not dive solo, even staff). Your working team would have been composed two buddy pairs of candidates. You'd only have worked with me and my junior in the pool if you had been ranked at the bottom of the class at one of the team reshufflings or if you'd been ranked at the top of the class prior to the last two openwater dives. Each of your lectures would be delivered by a different expert in the field, in each and every case a seasoned veteran underwater scientist. If you'd been taking the course through extension it would have cost you $520, if you had been a full time student it would have been free. You'd have received a NAUI Rescue Card, a DAN O2 Card, an American Red Cross Professional Rescuer CPR and First Aid Card and a NAUI Advanced Diver Card. Was the deal at your LDS significantly better? On the downside ... you'd need to show up the first day of class with a full set of gear including a 1/4" suit (no tank or regulator) and you'd need to be accepted into the class of 20 candidates, selected from the usually 200 students who are looking for a slot (priority to Faculty, Staff, Grad Students, with a need to do underwater science, then undergrads in science with 4 slots reserved for me to take whoever I felt was in the best interest of the future of the program).
That's another place where we differ, I accept no accents ... I believe that when it comes to matters of life and death it is possible to run a zero defect environment.

No, My local LDS did not offer that much, tho I am already CPR certified, the university that is close to me doesnt offer that much either. My cost for the training was 320, with the classroom and the dives, also, our instructor encourages us to accompany him on more dives, witch we have done, and he does organize dives that there is no charge for. We did have access to loaner gear durring our class, but have chosen to buy our own versus renting.
We do differ on how we view the accidents. To me, its human nature that there will be accidents. True training and experience will decrease the possibility, but I dont think they can be eliminated.
I do not feel inferior for having had training from an LDS, tho I do feel I need more experience and I will get it through diving. May not be the perfect scenario, but its what I have available to me. It would be nice tho, if we never had to discuss this type of accident again.

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

Sorry Jeter but I disagree completly with you on this point. I don't think divers should be so locked in on one response to a problem. We can't predict what will happen during a dive so we have be be aware and thinking all the time, a ditching of gear and free accent may never happen but if it does I'm fully aware that I can do it. My wife (my dive buddy) and I still practice buddy breathing during the year because we feel it is a useful skill even if it is not taught anymore. I don't believe is setting limits or saying never to do something, and I again disagree that only a paniced diver would head to the surface without his gear in case of an entagelement. have you ever encountered a drift net in the open ocean? I have and ended up cutting myself out but it used almost all my air to do it, another few minutes an I would have had to ditch my gear as it was still tangled and I would have been out of air. Remember, Murphy always strikes at the most inopportune time.

Well said.

I think a lot of great things have happened with dive equipment since I was certified in 1976, but I feel that some important skills should not have been discarded in basic OW courses. Buddy breathing is certainly a biggie.