Calling All Mac Users!!!!!

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

I have an I-Mac and a G5. I'm looking at getting a Suunto Mosquito, or Cobra, and would really like to have a Mac interface for it. I've been vintage diving for a long time now, and figured I would get some use from the computer age that my company (Applied Materials) has worked hard to help create.

SeaRat
 
CineDiver:
Hello my fellow 'scubians'

I challenge Suunto or any other Manufacture to give a logical response to this problem! I always find that friendly competition only means better results in all ways from Application to Support.

-CineDiver, churning the waters

I just re-read your post. Oops.. Sorry. This doesn't
really address the question
that you asked but it does explain how vendors choose
not to support the MAC platform...

--- bill


I can give what I think the answer is.....
Its economics/Money plain and simple.

If you look at the number of people that own/use PCs vs those
that own/use ONLY MACs, you'll see that even by conservative
estimates the MACs only have around 10% market share.

To support a product on both platforms usually doubles your
overhead to maintain the product. Sure you can argue that
there is some overlap of work and can share some
amount of code but you still have to have to design it to
work on both, debug, test, and maintain support staff
to provide customer support for it.

So if you make the assumption, that SCUBA divers own MACs
in the same percentages as the world at large, then at
least 90% of your total available market customers are
going to be served by a PC product offering.

So in pure business terms, it is hard to justify doubling your
s/w development overhead to pickup less than 10% more sales.
NOTE: I say less than 10% because some MAC users will
buy the product anyway because they either have alternative
solutions or don't intend to use the download capability.

Companies may also be choosing to put their R&D dollars
into developing newer, lower cost, more feature rich, better dive
computers rather than in supporting additional lower volume
computer platforms for their dive software.

I mean if it came down to it, would you rather have support
for a certain existing dive computer on your MAC
or have a dive computer with more features that costs less?

I was involved with a company that developed DSL modems.
I sat through numerous meetings where we HEATEDLY debated
MAC support. You have no idea how painful it is to have to make
the decision to blow off that section of the market. We decided
it was better to focus on increasing market share
and sales volumes rather than breadth of market support.
That meant developing new lower cost DSL modem designs
rather than support the Apple machines. I.e. having lower
cost newer designs increased sales & profits more than the
amount we could have gotten if we added support for the MACs
and delayed our new product offerings.
In our case, eventually,
we did get there but it was several years later and the market
matured enough where we didn't have to do as much custom
work on the Apple platforms as well.

And keep in mind that once you go down a path of not supporting
a platform like the MAC, it is harder to go back and add it.
There never is a good business time to do it, since it always
involves adding risk and taking a hit on budget and schedules
of products that are already making money. All for a tiny
incremental bit of revenue.

In our case, in the long run, the Apple users got lower cost
better products by benefiting from the higher volumes
(100k+ units per month) created by the PC users.
The interrim time period was painful for them since they had
no support.
Such is the pain of living in a free market capitalistic society.

--- bill
 
I have a Macintosh PowerBook and an iMac, both running Mac OS 10.4.2, and I've been using Macintoshes since they were invented. I have two Suunto products: a Cobra dive computer (non-liberal NDL calculations, excellent features and user interface) and a D3 depth timer.

I was successful for a while in importing dive data from the Cobra into Suunto's Dive Manager program running in Virtual PC on Mac OS X. Importantly, besides emulating Windows XP, I had to convert the Cobra's serial interface to USB. Changes in the Mac OS made it impossible to keep imports working. But I'm glad, because the program was painfully slow.

But I really like the Dive Manager (DM) as an electronic dive log. I think Mark Rosenstein's DiveLog program is excellent and would use it except for two things. One is that I want the nitrogen loading graphs that DM provides, for useful post-dive analysis. I also want DM's simulation capability, for dive planning that includes nitrogen loading. The other thing is that it doesn't solve the serial-to-USB interface problem.

I'd be in clover if Suunto would make DM Mac compatible AND provide a reasonably priced USB upgrade for their old, tired serial interface. If Mark were to add nitrogen graphs, I'd be very tempted to switch to his program for the Mac, despite the interface problem.

I took the practical path of investing in a Walmart PC (it has a serial interface) and a copy of Windows, and I now happily run DM on that box (total cost: about $300). I also use it for storing and mapping waypoints for my Garmin GPS device. Garmin's attitude, by the way, is exactly like Suunto's: no Mac software and only a serial interface.

I hope CineDiver and the other responders can affect an attitude change in Suunto and other device manufacturers. There seem to be a variety of options if they don't want to provide Mac support in-house. As CD said, they can at least open their interfaces for others to hook onto.

But, more profitably for all concerned, perhaps, why not contract with skilled Mac authors like Mark to provide what's needed as a Suunto (or whatever) product. The result would certainly polish the brand image and improve relations with existing and prospective customers. [I wonder if Mark has approached or been approached by Suunto....]
 
I am working on nitrogen loading for DiveLog. I've got Buhlmann ZHL running now, though it gives significantly different answers than Suunto's modified RGBM algorithm. Since Suunto hasn't published exactly what they are using, I can't duplicate theirs. I'm still tweaking things, but hope to put version 1.2 out to beta test this winter.

However, while the next version of DiveLog will show nitrogen loading and NDLs for post-dive analysis, I'm reluctant to put in any dive planning capabilities. As an individual writing a program, rather than a large corporation, I don't have the resources to exhaustively test this nor the insurance to cover myself against mistakes that it might make, leading to a diver's death. Given how litigious the U.S. is these days, no number of disclaimers will protect a developer for these kind of claims.

I have certainly attempted to contact Suunto. As far as I know, no one there has actually considered my request. They always respond with the same pre-written text about not having Mac support, and don't even answer the question I'm asking.

-Mark
 
bperrybap:
I just re-read your post. Oops.. Sorry. This doesn't
really address the question
that you asked but it does explain how vendors choose
not to support the MAC platform...

--- bill


I can give what I think the answer is.....
Its economics/Money plain and simple.

If you look at the number of people that own/use PCs vs those
that own/use ONLY MACs, you'll see that even by conservative
estimates the MACs only have around 10% market share.

To support a product on both platforms usually doubles your
overhead to maintain the product. Sure you can argue that
there is some overlap of work and can share some
amount of code but you still have to have to design it to
work on both, debug, test, and maintain support staff
to provide customer support for it.

So if you make the assumption, that SCUBA divers own MACs
in the same percentages as the world at large, then at
least 90% of your total available market customers are
going to be served by a PC product offering.

So in pure business terms, it is hard to justify doubling your
s/w development overhead to pickup less than 10% more sales.
NOTE: I say less than 10% because some MAC users will
buy the product anyway because they either have alternative
solutions or don't intend to use the download capability.

Companies may also be choosing to put their R&D dollars
into developing newer, lower cost, more feature rich, better dive
computers rather than in supporting additional lower volume
computer platforms for their dive software.

I mean if it came down to it, would you rather have support
for a certain existing dive computer on your MAC
or have a dive computer with more features that costs less?

I was involved with a company that developed DSL modems.
I sat through numerous meetings where we HEATEDLY debated
MAC support. You have no idea how painful it is to have to make
the decision to blow off that section of the market. We decided
it was better to focus on increasing market share
and sales volumes rather than breadth of market support.
That meant developing new lower cost DSL modem designs
rather than support the Apple machines. I.e. having lower
cost newer designs increased sales & profits more than the
amount we could have gotten if we added support for the MACs
and delayed our new product offerings.
In our case, eventually,
we did get there but it was several years later and the market
matured enough where we didn't have to do as much custom
work on the Apple platforms as well.

And keep in mind that once you go down a path of not supporting
a platform like the MAC, it is harder to go back and add it.
There never is a good business time to do it, since it always
involves adding risk and taking a hit on budget and schedules
of products that are already making money. All for a tiny
incremental bit of revenue.

In our case, in the long run, the Apple users got lower cost
better products by benefiting from the higher volumes
(100k+ units per month) created by the PC users.
The interrim time period was painful for them since they had
no support.
Such is the pain of living in a free market capitalistic society.

--- bill


Thanks Bill,

This is nearly the same reply I got from the Beta team at Intuit about there Mac platform. Very much to the numbers... but ignoring the fact that Mac users stick by what's good and mostly go for quality products.

I did three dives in Tobago and used the VPC with the Suunto DM2... PAINFULLY slow. My 1Ghz TiBook is on its last leg... but DAMN if its as bad as VPC!

But beyond that... it pains me to see companies NOT support Mac users, but in turn NOT release information to developers so that they may make attempts to provide quality products to the multitude of users out there.

I would assume that Mac households, on an average spend atleast 30%~40% more on hardware than PC users and probably about the same in software.
 
To those who have been asking for Suunto D9 support in DiveLog, it will be happening soon. I received a D9 for Christmas! It should really speed up the development not to have to arrange to borrow one when I want to try something. Now I just have to get it wet to have any data to download...

-Mark
 
I have a network of five Macs at home (3 divers and two non-divers). My main home computer is a G5 dual 2.5 loaded. My current dive computer is a UWATEC Aladin Prime and I'm trying to decide between a UWATEC Smart TEC and a Suunto Vytec for purchase in the next few weeks. The Aladin will go to another diver in the family.

I've also got about 6 G5s at work.

Not sure how this is going to change with the move to Intel, but the dive computer manufactureres are looking at the wrong demographics if they are dismissing Apple based on 3 % of total sales (or whatever the number is this quarter). Mac users *on average* (and I don't mean to offend anyone) are more into "gizmos" than PC users. The reasons include the high percentage of Apple users at Universities as well as pro application support for video editing, audio mixing, etc. Thus, a Mac user, at least a power user, would inherently be attracted to a dive computer with download capability even if they were solidly in the recreational/resort diving category. Mac users are used to hooking up their iPods, video cameras, etc. and they would have a low barrier to connecting a dive computer.

Also there is solid evidence that the market share is moving up with the success of the iMac. The first Intel Macs are being annouced next month, according to the reliable Mac rumor sites.

Jim
 
MDJH51:

Could you elaborate on the JTrack Product? Looks like third-party software? Do you use it? Is it a solution? Is it good enough to guide my Suunto vs. UWATEC decision?

Jim
 
Has anyone tried to sniff the command structure being sent through the IR port to these computers... I realise that it is more work, but it should be eminently possible for someone who is a programming wiz kid (ie not me, no time, no computer) to figure out the protocols for communication.

I agree though that the relevant companies should quit fleecing us, and at least release a limited subset of protocols / commands to their userbase so that at least the basic operations can be coded.

Perhaps if someone with something already writen were to approach a given company on a business level, they may be interested in allowing them access to the protocols, in exchange for licenced support software for mac / linux.

I would prefer it though if at least the basic interaction information could be made freely available.

IMHO these companies do not do this as they are frightened that people will realise just how much money they are charging for what in reality is very basic stuff! Lets see, a microcontroller, an lcd display, a real time clock, a pressure sensor, a temperature sensor, and a program to glue it all together and run an algorithm.... 50 bucks for parts, and that's if you're buying onesies!

1 old imac running yellowdog
multiple PC's running all kinds of stuff incl windoze :(
1 BasicX 24....
Lots of imagination!
 

Back
Top Bottom