Re-start on topic: Questions concerning Backplates.

[walkonmars]

Hi MaizeNBlue88,

I am in the process of looking to upgrading my jacket BC into a BP/W set-up, also. Your original post seemed to resemble a debate off topic so I will try to answer and ask additional questions pertinent to our search for BP/W systems.

1.) I suggest not considering a 316 CRES material over 304 CRES. For our usage, they will behave identically. If you want to hand down your BP to your great grandson someday, a 316 CRES plate will look shinier than the 304.
Science: (Do not read if you are tired) 316 has a slightly higher yield strength and tensile strength but the two alloys have the same elastic modulus and density. We will not be using the materials to their yield point (if so, they would be bent, deformed or stressed to a permanent extent). (If you were in your high-rise condo and there was a power failure while in the elevator and wanted to pry the elevator door open using your BP...the 316 CRES backplate may provide some advantage.) 316 is used much in the marine industry for extended exposure environments but more so in the chemical, food and industrial process industries for containment of chemicals, food, dairy and corrosive materials at extended durations and elevated temperatures. Aluminum BP are also used so the additional strength advantage is not a factor. I am buying the stainless due to weight properties. If a plate happens to be 316, great but consider it stainless. Don't consider 316 over 304.

2.) I am considering the DGX basic kit. I am unclear about what wing to get. According to the Dive Gear express description, I would be better off with the Voyager 35lb wing.
I am a 7mm wetsuit diver on the SoCal coast, 52F to 68F water temp. I usually wear 14lbs using a HP100 steel tank on a jacket BC rig. I also did the calculations using the spreadsheet "buoyancy estimate worksheet" and see I would likely need only a 25lb wing. Am I wrong?

3.) I also plan to clip a stage bottle under one arm someday. Will a bare bones BP/W allow me to add D rings and such to the shoulder web and belt to do this?

4.) Lastly, I wear a 7mm suit. Do I really need shoulder pads?

5.) I'm likely going cheap and buying the DGX Custom singles set-up kit from Dive Gear Express. It is described to accommodate singles but does not have a STA. Should I get one anyway?

Thanks for your inputs

(Side note: MAC users having trouble opening Excel files? Just download Open Office for free. It is similar to MS Office and is free shareware. [No, I don't work for the company.])

------Original post by MaizeNBlue88-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well thanks to you guys, I've seen the light. I have made an almost definite decision to get a BP/W setup. Right now I'm stuck on one thing though. Now I know there are a lot of people who are quite partial to a particular brand but I need some solid facts; or at least what you guys have seen from your experiences. Please don't inflate the truth to support a particular manufacturer either, I just need honesty.

Here's the thing, I'm currently considering getting a Dive Rite Stainless Steel XT Backplate as the platform for my setup. My thought is, because it's made of 316 stainless it will last longer with less degradation than many other brands that use 304 stainless. Also, it's the cheapest 316 stainless backplate that I've found. My questions are:

Does being made out of 316 stainless matter as much as I may be led to believe?

Are there better plates that I should consider? What is it exactly that makes these plates better?

What plates are going to be compatible with other manufacturers products like harnesses, wings, pads, weight pockets, etc.?

What plates, in your experience, have been the most comfortable; considering weight, contour, shape, hole layout, etc.?

Over the last few days I've looked at products/setups from Dive Rite, Apeks, DSS, Hollis, Halcyon, Oxycheq, HOG, and Zeagle. So far I've somewhat decided on the Dive Rite XT, but my decision is by no means set in stone. Please provide some info so that I can maybe give my fingers a rest from constant typing and searching for info. Thanks in advance guys.

 

[cool_hardware52]

2.) I am considering the DGX basic kit. I am unclear about what wing to get. According to the Dive Gear express description, I would be better off with the Voyager 35lb wing.
I am a 7mm wetsuit diver on the SoCal coast, 52F to 68F water temp. I usually wear 14lbs using a HP100 steel tank on a jacket BC rig. I also did the calculations using the spreadsheet "buoyancy estimate worksheet" and see I would likely need only a 25lb wing. Am I wrong?

In cold water required lift is a function of the buoyancy of your exposure suit. Very few 7 mm suits will be anywhere near 35 lbs positive. i'd suggest you test your suit for buoyancy. Remember divers use Buoyancy Compensators to Compensate for the only thing that loses Buoyancy as you descend, and that's is your exposure suit. Your wetsuit cannot lose more buoyancy than it starts with. If your numbers above are correct it implies your suit is ~ 18 lbs (or less) positive 14 lbs of lead + 2 lbs of regulator + 2 lbs of empty HP 100 = 18 lbs total ballast. With a SS plate and harness, reg and full HP 100 your rig will be about -18 lbs with a full tank. No need for a 35 lbs wing.

3.) I also plan to clip a stage bottle under one arm someday. Will a bare bones BP/W allow me to add D rings and such to the shoulder web and belt to do this?

The most basic hogarthian harness (5 drings, one at each collar bone, one on the left hip, scooter ring at the front of the crotch strap and butt dring at the rear of the crotch strap) are all you need to sling a bottle, or 2 bottles, or more with a leash. There is zero need to add drings. The first two bottles clip off to the left chest dring and the dring on your left hip.

4.) Lastly, I wear a 7mm suit. Do I really need shoulder pads?

No, people often use a BP&W without shoulder pads wearing no more than a T Shirt. In nearly any wetsuit any padding will only add bulk and buoyancy you don't need.

Tobin

 

[halocline]

2.) I am considering the DGX basic kit. I am unclear about what wing to get. According to the Dive Gear express description, I would be better off with the Voyager 35lb wing.
I am a 7mm wetsuit diver on the SoCal coast, 52F to 68F water temp. I usually wear 14lbs using a HP100 steel tank on a jacket BC rig. I also did the calculations using the spreadsheet "buoyancy estimate worksheet" and see I would likely need only a 25lb wing. Am I wrong?

Dive rite is famous for recommending (and building) wings that are too big for their intended use. Unless that voyager wing has changed (i.e shrunk) in the last several years, it's a lousy, floppy single tank wing. I'd avoid it like the plague. They finally seem to have come up with a good design on the travel wing. Get that, and get the 12" exhaust hose with no pull dump. Dive rite is a weird company, they really do have some great stuff but they also have some bizarre design touches, like the nonsense of putting a pull dump on a technical diving wing.

 

[tbone1004]

2. What Tobin said, travel wing is fine, though I would seriously consider supporting local business and spend the extra money on a DSS setup, it will be a bit better for you anyway since the travel wing without a STA on a standard backplate is a colossal PITA it flops around quite badly. It's not that much more, $150, but the backplate is better quality, the wings are comparable quality imho, and the DSS system for cam band and wing removal is worth the extra money.

3. You can add as many d-rings as you want to a webbing harness, it's literally just webbing, you can put as many different kinds as you want in any place you want, but the DIR guys use 5 D-rings, one on each shoulder, one on the left hip, one on the front and one on the back of the crotchstrap and that's it. This allows for use of a dpv, towing a spare DPV, and quite a few bottles on the left side with a canister on the right.

Slightly excessive, but those are all on the hip and shoulder D-rings, or some just on the shoulder... Sidemount requires some extra D-rings and some people put one on the right side if they aren't mounting a canister light for separation of Deco/Stage bottles, but it isn't required.

4. Not unless you are hiking a significant ways to your destination, i.e. over 1/4 mile, but in that case you'd need a different style harness instead of shoulder pads. I learned to dive and our program teaches divers in a basic 1 piece harness from day 1 in nothing but a T-shirt if they chose, but usually just in a bathing suit. It isn't the most comfortable thing while walking around on land, but with a T-shirt you can easily walk the 100yds or so to the water with no problems. In a 7mm wetsuit you essentially have 7mm shoulder pads on, so no reason to bother with them, they get in the way.

5. As mentioned above, while the DR wing is made in the US by a friend of mine, I'm not sure where DGX is sourcing their backplates, but DR sources theirs domestically. I would spend the extra $150 and buy the DSS rig, it's higher quality on the plate by far and the attachment system is much better. The Dive Rite wings are designed to be used with their Transpac system which is why they all have crosshairs in the middle instead of a flat panel. I prefer this design, but the other side of it is that in single tank configurations they are best used with a STA. Many people don't like them, I personally do, but it is very much personal preference. I would not recommend purchasing a DR wing intended for singles use on a hard backplate without an STA. Other advantage here is you can buy one that accepts a weight and you can make the rig 14lbs and take the weight belt off. Conversely, with the DSS rig you can get the weight plates that do the same thing.

 

[ScubaInChicago]

2. What Tobin said, travel wing is fine, though I would seriously consider supporting local business and spend the extra money on a DSS setup, it will be a bit better for you anyway since the travel wing without a STA on a standard backplate is a colossal PITA it flops around quite badly. It's not that much more, $150, but the backplate is better quality, the wings are comparable quality imho, and the DSS system for cam band and wing removal is worth the extra money.

3. You can add as many d-rings as you want to a webbing harness, it's literally just webbing, you can put as many different kinds as you want in any place you want, but the DIR guys use 5 D-rings, one on each shoulder, one on the left hip, one on the front and one on the back of the crotchstrap and that's it. This allows for use of a dpv, towing a spare DPV, and quite a few bottles on the left side with a canister on the right.

Slightly excessive, but those are all on the hip and shoulder D-rings, or some just on the shoulder... Sidemount requires some extra D-rings and some people put one on the right side if they aren't mounting a canister light for separation of Deco/Stage bottles, but it isn't required.

4. Not unless you are hiking a significant ways to your destination, i.e. over 1/4 mile, but in that case you'd need a different style harness instead of shoulder pads. I learned to dive and our program teaches divers in a basic 1 piece harness from day 1 in nothing but a T-shirt if they chose, but usually just in a bathing suit. It isn't the most comfortable thing while walking around on land, but with a T-shirt you can easily walk the 100yds or so to the water with no problems. In a 7mm wetsuit you essentially have 7mm shoulder pads on, so no reason to bother with them, they get in the way.

5. As mentioned above, while the DR wing is made in the US by a friend of mine, I'm not sure where DGX is sourcing their backplates, but DR sources theirs domestically. I would spend the extra $150 and buy the DSS rig, it's higher quality on the plate by far and the attachment system is much better. The Dive Rite wings are designed to be used with their Transpac system which is why they all have crosshairs in the middle instead of a flat panel. I prefer this design, but the other side of it is that in single tank configurations they are best used with a STA. Many people don't like them, I personally do, but it is very much personal preference. I would not recommend purchasing a DR wing intended for singles use on a hard backplate without an STA. Other advantage here is you can buy one that accepts a weight and you can make the rig 14lbs and take the weight belt off. Conversely, with the DSS rig you can get the weight plates that do the same thing.

Wow, that picture sure looks, um, interesting?

 

[TSandM]

Looks like a support diver transporting extra deco bottles. I can't imagine any dive where you'd need that many bottles of 50%.

 

[ScubaInChicago]

Not going to be of much use with missing regulators, lol.

 

[ams511]

2.) According to the Dive Gear express description, I would be better off with the Voyager 35lb wing. I am a 7mm wetsuit diver on the SoCal coast, 52F to 68F water temp. I usually wear 14lbs using a HP100 steel tank on a jacket BC rig. I also did the calculations using the spreadsheet "buoyancy estimate worksheet" and see I would likely need only a 25lb wing. Am I wrong?

One thing that wasn't mentioned is where do you carry the weight? At the start of the dive the tank is - 9 lb, the regulator -2, and the plate is -6 so you are at -17 lbs so the wing will float the rig as long as you carry the additional 8 lbs on the belt (6+8=14). If you move the additional 8 lbs to pockets on the rig now the total weight is -25 lbs (17+8=25) and the wing is +25 so it may not float. You are trusting that DR is accurate with the lift capacity.

Note: I am assuming you are using a Faber FX-100 or PST E7 tank. If you are using a Faber HP100 that is -15lb full which is marginal with a steel plate and a 25 lb wing. You would be better off with an aluminum plate or a larger wing. You can check tank specs here.

 

[Pullmyfinger]

Stow that can light cord Tbone!

 

[cool_hardware52]

One thing that wasn't mentioned is where do you carry the weight? At the start of the dive the tank is - 9 lb, the regulator -2, and the plate is -6 so you are at -17 lbs so the wing will float the rig as long as you carry the additional 8 lbs on the belt (6+8=14). If you move the additional 8 lbs to pockets on the rig now the total weight is -25 lbs (17+8=25) and the wing is +25 so it may not float. You are trusting that DR is accurate with the lift capacity.

Note: I am assuming you are using a Faber FX-100 or PST E7 tank. If you are using a Faber HP100 that is -15lb full which is marginal with a steel plate and a 25 lb wing. You would be better off with an aluminum plate or a larger wing. You can check tank specs here.

Uh, well no.

I usually wear 14lbs using a HP100 steel tank on a jacket BC rig.[/B] I also did the calculations using the spreadsheet "buoyancy estimate worksheet" and see I would likely need only a 25lb wing. Am I wrong?

Walkon pretty clearly states, and I restated in my response that he is currently using about 18 lbs of total ballast with a jacket BC.

14 lead + 2 regulator + 2 for an empty HP100. 14 + 2 + 2 = 18

(the faber 100 that are -15 full are 3180+ i.e. "medium pressure", not high pressure)

If Walkon is currently using 18 lbs with a jacket BC that is likely at least a few lbs inherently buoyant it implies that his exposure suit is 18 lbs or less buoyant.

When he *MOVES* from a jacket bc to a BP&W assuming a SS plate his rig will be about -18 lbs with a full tank, 6 lbs for his plate and harness, 2 for his reg and ~10 for a full HP 100 6 + 2 + 10 = 18.

A 100 cuft tank holds about 7.8 lbs of gas, and will swing about 7 lbs unless the diver is ending his dive with 0 psi. That leaves his rig about -11 at the end of the dive.

If his suit is really +16 (likely given his current configuration) he only need about 14 to 16 lbs of total ballast. (His suit won't be +16 at his shallow stop)

Even if he carries this additional 3-5 lbs on his rig it will still only be -23lbs.

If he had a MP faber 100 (not very common in SoCal) his rig would only be -23 lbs. Still no need for a 35 lbs wing.

Tobin