Buddy missing on surface - What would you have done?

[gangrel441]

Pony bottle close to dry at end, back gas - which I'd returned to -still had 500#. Really okay there.

Pony don't count for gas unless you are under water already and your back gas craps out. I understand how you made your decision then, but this is an important lesson to take forward.

Tried. Always try...Yeah, with his crippled wife waiting in their car. :11: Again, thanks.

The crippled wife in the car adds to the drama of the situation, but it doesn't change the procedures for performing a search and rescue. Again, I understand how the decisions were made then, but even if he was still down, and you went in after him, if you didn't come back, she would now be a crippled widow and have your life on her conscience as well.

 

[vkalia]

Pony bottle close to dry at end, back gas - which I'd returned to -still had 500#. Really okay there.

Ok, there are 2 components to what you did:

1/ Less efficient search

- Discussed in my earlier post - not calling in backup, going down immediately as opposed to a shallower bubble search, etc. Lots of good info there - not meant to replace a Rescue course.

2/ Extra risk incurred by going back down to depth on a used tank

- In principle, going down alone puts you at greater incremental risk and violates one of the basic premises of rescue: you now run the risk of going OOA yourself, you take on all the extra risk of solo diving and you are also doing a purportedly riskier dive profile.

I'd expect an experienced diver to be fully aware of these issues, take them into account and make their own assessment. OTOH, I would be horrified if an inexperienced diver chose to take these risks, as they are in no position to assess those risks or make that decision.

My rule in this sort of case would be "if you have to ask, you are not ready to do it" - the fact that you are doing so indicates to me that you perhaps were not in a position to do. OTOH, you do have a lot of experience, so without knowing you, I dont want to say for sure.

I will say that if you converted your remaining gas and NDL into remaining bottom time, then you were doing ok. OTOH, if you just blindly relied on the pony to bail you out - as it seems from your original post - you didnt do too well. You might have been "really ok" here - but in another situation, you may not be.

Tried. Always try...Yeah, with his crippled wife waiting in their car. :11: Again, thanks.

As a dive instructor, I can never recommend doing what you did. As a person, I salute you for taking the extra risk to save a friend (even if that decision was not rational, not the safest of decisions and not fully thought through).

If I had a friend go missing while diving, I'd be searching for them till my tank was dry. I am alive today because someone went above and beyond the call of what they should have done as a buddy.

That being said, still put me down more in the "bad idea" camp as opposed to "good idea" camp.

And general caveat for any beginners reading this (and at the risk of repeating myself): just because I am saying that I am ok with one individual deciding to go back down an look for a missing buddy does NOT mean that I am ok with this course of action. It is not safe - it may be ok for an experienced diver, who is fully aware of all the hazards, to take on the additional risks, but it is not ok for someone who doesnt understand all those risks to try this course of action.

Vandit

 

[DandyDon]

Thanks again....

As a dive instructor, I can never recommend doing what you did. As a person, I salute you for taking the extra risk to save a friend (even if that decision was not rational, not the safest of decisions and not fully thought through).

If I had a friend go missing while diving, I'd be searching for them till my tank was dry. I am alive today because someone went above and beyond the call of what they should have done as a buddy.

I'd be interested in reading about that experience, if you'd care to share it, as I'm sure many would.

You could post it here on Near Misses or the associate Accidents forum.

 

[Scuba]

Pony don't count for gas unless you are under water already and your back gas craps out. I understand how you made your decision then, but this is an important lesson to take forward.

The million dollar question is: Did he go back down because he had a pony tank or because he had the 19 cft of gas in the pony available?

If he had an additional 19 cft in the main tank and no pony, would the decision have been different? Without knowing, pony talk is just pony talk.

Reserved gas is for emergency situations. This was a situation where all available gas enters into consideration, for many divers. Way too many people against pony tanks for all the wrong reasons.

 

[vkalia]

Excellent point, Scuba - what I was trying to make, but more elegantly stated (I'm watching the Eagles pound Dallas, but MNF isnt really the same thing when it happens on Tue morning at 7:30am). It is one thing to say "I have a pony, so I am ok" and another thing to say "I have XX l of gas, and so have YY min of bottom time, and so can dive for so long" -and in the latter case, you still have to take into account what happens if the pony craps out once the primary tank has been run down).

Don, I am not sure this group is the best place for it. What my buddy and I did broke one of the more serious rules of diving: while I am alive because of that, I dont want to even remotely encourage people to consider trying it if they are in a similar situation.

Vandit

 

[DandyDon]

Excellent point, Scuba - what I was trying to make, but more elegantly stated (I'm watching the Eagles pound Dallas, but MNF isnt really the same thing when it happens on Tue morning at 7:30am). It is one thing to say "I have a pony, so I am ok" and another thing to say "I have XX l of gas, and so have YY min of bottom time, and so can dive for so long" -and in the latter case, you still have to take into account what happens if the pony craps out once the primary tank has been run down).

My quick thought (however cavalier any want to view it) was that I had 19 cf of air in one tank, with the Spg in hand, for a fast (albeit solo) search. For that continuation of the dive, I viewed it as my working gas, and the 500# in the 80 cf back tank as my now bail-out bottle.

Don, I am not sure this group is the best place for it. What my buddy and I did broke one of the more serious rules of diving: while I am alive because of that, I dont want to even remotely encourage people to consider trying it if they are in a similar situation.

Vandit

Okay - think about it, discuss it with a Moderator here perhaps.

 

[Scuba]

My quick thought (however cavalier any want to view it) was that I had 19 cf of air in one tank, with the Spg in hand, for a fast (albeit solo) search. For that continuation of the dive, I viewed it as my working gas, and the 500# in the 80 cf back tank as my now bail-out bottle.

Good answer Don, your pony is not a one trick pony. When the little pony becomes the big pony and the big pony becomes the little pony one can switch mounts and continue safely galloping within the changing, diminishing boundaries. Options.

But I think some believe the pony is a crutch that gives you a sense of security in the event of gas system failure, a security which you may extrapolate into taking other risks dissociated from the benefits of gas system redundancy for which you may not be adequately prepared for.

If you had all the gas you had in this situation in one tank, what would you have done? You don't need to answer to anyone but yourself. I believe an honest reflection upon the issue raised with this question will help you determine if the pony is doing more than providing benefits, if it is in fact also causing other problems that would not otherwise occur.

It's all one big give and take. It's important to understand what one gives and takes in order to better prepare.

Please don't take my preaching the wrong way. I constantly preach plenty to myself, as I also do my share of don'ts.

 

[DandyDon]

But I think some believe the pony is a crutch that gives you a sense of security in the event of gas system failure, a security which you may extrapolate into taking other risks dissociated from the benefits of gas system redundancy for which you may not be adequately prepared for.

Yep, been there, done that, survived the learning experience. :blush:

 

[markfm]

Not to try bringing this too far off, but actual use of the bailout gas is one reason I purposefully "overweight". I carry enough lead to handle depletion of the pony, as well as bringing my main tank down near 0 -- it's only a couple of "extra" pounds compared to the "normal" neutral at 15'-500PSI approach, but does matter if you want to be able to use the gas and still be neutral at the end.
It would be no fun to be in a situation where the gas needs to be used, then not be able to do a safety stop at the end.

 

[ianr33]

Don,

How do you mount your pony these days?