BP/W are banned! And other fun things I've learned on my first chartered dive ...

[scubamikey]

When you been diving for 30 or more years (I've been diving for 50) you'll seen a lot of the "newest advances" come and go, you'll have seen the things that stick around, continue to be used and become part of the norm, and you've likely got a garage full of the things that did not. That's called developing discernment.

There are parts of my gear that are as new as today, and some that go back in to the 50s or 60s. I try to use the best gear and techniques possible, which does not mean jumping at every "advance" when I have the experience to see that’s often just a new marketing device. for example: while I dive a long hose because it's a better solution, I dive a skin-2-sides Rubatex wetsuit (design cerca 1965) because that’s a design that’s yet to be beat.

So in addition to your many years of experience, you also seem to be able to evaluate new equipment and techniques and incorporate them if they enhance your diving. Also, you've learned that some "advances" are merely marketing, to sell new gear and make money. Not all divers your age put that much effort into diving.

I guess I just feel that if someone is an instructor and owns a dive shop, they should have heard about things like "DIR" by now and be able to discuss it with students who have questions. Even if they don't sell that kind of gear. Also, just because you don't typically sell that gear, that doesn't mean that it's dangerous to use.

In his defense, before I left the shop the owner did say "But I'll sell you whatever you want.". If he was educated about DIR, then I would have known he had spent time in the last 10 years reading about new diving techniques (good and bad). I probably would have bought my reg there. But I don't feel comfortable having to educate a shop owner in order to get the gear I want, I'd rather buy from someone who has invested their own time in their education. That tells me they care about diving and selling gear.

On a final note, I don't want to bash the guy for not knowing about DIR, I understand he's probably busy with his life and trying to make his small dive shop a success. I hope he is able to sell lots of gear to "tourist divers" for their yearly trips. Maybe the truth behind this is that he's so busy teaching new divers, he hasn't had time to read up on DIR or advantages of Hogarthian diving. When he does, he'll gain another segment of the local diving market.

 

[dherbman]

I guess I just feel that if someone is an instructor and owns a dive shop, they should have heard about things like "DIR" by now and be able to discuss it with students who have questions.

If he was educated about DIR, then I would have known he had spent time in the last 10 years reading about new diving techniques (good and bad). ........

But I don't feel comfortable having to educate a shop owner in order to get the gear I want, I'd rather buy from someone who has invested their own time in their education.

Great points. I hope they are taken to heart by any dive professional that reads them. If knowledge of DIR was as common as opinion, there would be a lot less disinformation being spread.

 

[PerroneFord]

Knowledge has a nasty little drawback of only being available to those that seek it.

 

[abitton]

Ain't that the truth...

 

[MikeFerrara]

I guess I just feel that if someone is an instructor and owns a dive shop, they should have heard about things like "DIR" by now and be able to discuss it with students who have questions. Even if they don't sell that kind of gear. Also, just because you don't typically sell that gear, that doesn't mean that it's dangerous to use.

He probably shouldn't discuss DIR if he doesn't know anything about it. However, I don't see any reason to expect that the average dive shop owner or employee should be prepared to discuss it. There has been little written on the subject in mainstream publications, the equipment isn't in line with what the mainstream manufacturers make (though that's changing some) and the techniques are NOT in line with what most of the mainstream agencies teach. To me, expecting him to be educated on the subject makes about as much sense as expecting him to be educated about commercial diving public safety diving or newt suits.

True, there's a lot on the internet about it these days but not everyone does research online or participates in these forums and it's almost completely unmentioned in the other liturature that is read by most dive pros.

In his defense, before I left the shop the owner did say "But I'll sell you whatever you want.". If he was educated about DIR, then I would have known he had spent time in the last 10 years reading about new diving techniques (good and bad). I probably would have bought my reg there. But I don't feel comfortable having to educate a shop owner in order to get the gear I want, I'd rather buy from someone who has invested their own time in their education. That tells me they care about diving and selling gear.

On a final note, I don't want to bash the guy for not knowing about DIR, I understand he's probably busy with his life and trying to make his small dive shop a success. I hope he is able to sell lots of gear to "tourist divers" for their yearly trips. Maybe the truth behind this is that he's so busy teaching new divers, he hasn't had time to read up on DIR or advantages of Hogarthian diving. When he does, he'll gain another segment of the local diving market.

It sounds to me like you're confusing a Hogarthian configuration with DIR. While DIR uses what's basically a Hogarthian configuration with some of their own requirements added, lots of other divers use a horgarthian configuration who are nowhere near being "DIR". In fact, I don't even think that William Hogarth Main (the guy the configuration is named after) considers himself DIR nor do some of the other early WKPP memebers. DIR is a GI and JJ thing. While cave divers and internet junkies may know quit a bit about them, the rest of the diving world is largly unaware of and unconcerned with their existance. The only agency that teaches "DIR" is GUE and they offer only 2 "recreational" courses (none of which are entry level certifications) and certify a very small percentage of technical and cave divers. Regardless of how much space it takes up in online forums, it's barely a ripple in "how the world learns to dive".

 

[dherbman]

To me, expecting him to be educated on the subject makes about as much sense as expecting him to be educated about commercial diving public safety diving or newt suits.

If they want the dollars associated with the support of these types of diving, it makes perfect sense to understand the needs of their customers.

 

[MikeFerrara]

If they want the dollars associated with the support of these types of diving, it makes perfect sense to understand the needs of their customers.

What dollars?

It's such a tiny part of diving as a whole that it could very well cost far more to get set up to make anything than they may ever make. Is the guy going to teach GUE courses? Check into what it takes to become an instructor. How many classes will you not teach now. You can't talk out of both sides of your mouth to every one and get away with it.

Think about it. Do I want to put on a lot of work importing a GUE instructor in order to host a DIRF and make $10 a student if I'm lucky. Maybe I do the same with a rec trimix class for another $10/student. Or...do I want to sell you an AOW class, BC specialty, wreck specialty (and the new BC to go with it because the first one I sold you won't work anymore), dry suit specialty and on and on.

Sell a few backplates and wings? The problem with selling this equipment is that most divers buy one backplate and they're done. ok maybe they buy 2 a SS and an AL plate. While there's some markup in a Halcyon plate You can buy a plate from Fred T or a few others for not much more than your shop will pay for it. Lots of guys make and sell plates. Order yourself some webbing online and you replace your own harness whenever you need to. One wing, two at most and you're about set for life. Divers who use this stuff don't buy a new set of equipment every few years to stay in style. On the contrary, what you might buy in the way of BP and wing as a new diver could be used throughout all of your diving by adding a few pieces here and there but with very little or no replacement. What else do we use?...we use a nickles worth of shock cord to replace all the retractors and other gadgets that shops make big markups on. A little pad of wetnotes replaces all the fancy slates. If you have a dive shop are you going to stand around telling your divers that not only do they not need this stuff but that it isn't functional and maybe even dangerous? Computers? None of those in DIR. Is he going to give up those computer sales that he needs to make his SP minimums in exchange for standing around discussing profiling and ratio deco? When the guy stands at the counter trying to educate you on DIR and maybe sell you a plate how is he going to explain having sold you all that stroke gear during your OW class? All the new little trinket sales that go with teaching an AOW class...a dive knife maybe? Forget it! Now you're telling your customers to buy a cheap kitchen knife from the dollar store for $2, break the tip off and make a sheath from a nickles worth of weight belt webbing.

Really, so many "tech" divers buy from friends who have dealerships and other sources which eliminate the need to pay the big markups that shops need to survive that the whole market really isn't very attractive. I know guys who sell OMS out of their trunks and have seen DUI dru suits sold the same way (though they may not be anymore).

Now, you have to replace or retrain all your instructors and assistants too because the skills of most just don't cut it in front of a bunch of DIRFed divers. You just can't have all those DIRFed guys seeing your staff kneeling all over the bottom like they usually do.

Wait til the SP, AL or about any other sales rep walks in and sees all that Hacyon stuff hanging on the wall (I've been here). Besides, lots of shops just could never make their SP/AL required minimums if they start pushing backplates. When I had a shop SP wanted almost 20K just to get started. If I had invensted that I would have needed to REALLY push those pretty pink and baby blue BC's.


Just as many shops would rather stay away from technical diving, for the one in a thousand divers who will get interested in DIR
9 even hear about it) and for what the sale oportunities are compared to potential lost oportunities, it probably makes more business sense for a recreational shop to get the DIR wannabe out of his shop before they influence other customers. DIR/hogarthian or whatever moves so much of dive shop equipment and training main-stay offerings into the obsolete stroke gear catagory that it would really take a good plan and a big investment to come out ahead as apposed to just letting that VERY SMALL minority move on down the road. Maybe not completely impossible but not easy or likely either and the shop certainly isn't going to get it done by just doing a little online reading.

 

[Thalassamania]

The only agency that teaches "DIR" is GUE ... it's barely a ripple in "how the world learns to dive".

Barely a ripple? I'm told that GUE has about 30 instructors worldwide at this point. I've certified more Instructors that that in a single ITC. It doesn't supprise me in the least that many (if not most) shop owners don't know it exists.

 

[dherbman]

Jeez, where do I begin? I wish I had the time, because I disagree with a lot you have written.

What dollars?

I read somewhere (damned if I can find it, but I'll keep looking) that tech sales account for 40% of equipment sales. Seems kinda high, but check the cash dumped in this thread.... These are the dollars I'm talking about.

You seem to have the impression that shops make money by teaching. I don't know of any that do. Instructors are there to create customers. It's the gear sales that support the LDS, not instruction.

For the most part, it's gear that already existis in the LDS. If it's not in stock, it can be ordered.

It's such a tiny part of diving as a whole that it could very well cost far more to get set up to make anything than they may ever make. Is the guy going to teach GUE courses? Check into what it takes to become an instructor. How many classes will you not teach now. You can't talk out of both sides of your mouth to every one and get away with it.

Think about it. Do I want to put on a lot of work importing a GUE instructor in order to host a DIRF and make $10 a student if I'm lucky. Maybe I do the same with a rec trimix class for another $10/student. Or...do I want to sell you an AOW class, BC specialty, wreck specialty (and the new BC to go with it because the first one I sold you won't work anymore), dry suit specialty and on and on.

Sell a few backplates and wings? The problem with selling this equipment is that most divers buy one backplate and they're done. ok maybe they buy 2 a SS and an AL plate.

C'mon Mike, you know there's a lot more to it than that. I started down the tech road after certifying as a DCS and dumping $2500 into my rec gear. Since then, I've invested another 3K and have barely scratched the surface of what I'll need.

While there's some markup in a Halcyon plate You can buy a plate from Fred T or a few others for not much more than your shop will pay for it. Lots of guys make and sell plates. Order yourself some webbing online and you replace your own harness whenever you need to. One wing, two at most and you're about set for life. Divers who use this stuff don't buy a new set of equipment every few years to stay in style. On the contrary, what you might buy in the way of BP and wing as a new diver could be used throughout all of your diving by adding a few pieces here and there but with very little or no replacement. What else do we use?...we use a nickles worth of shock cord to replace all the retractors and other gadgets that shops make big markups on. A little pad of wetnotes replaces all the fancy slates. If you have a dive shop are you going to stand around telling your divers that not only do they not need this stuff but that it isn't functional and maybe even dangerous? Computers? None of those in DIR. Is he going to give up those computer sales that he needs to make his SP minimums in exchange for standing around discussing profiling and ratio deco? When the guy stands at the counter trying to educate you on DIR and maybe sell you a plate how is he going to explain having sold you all that stroke gear during your OW class? All the new little trinket sales that go with teaching an AOW class...a dive knife maybe? Forget it! Now you're telling your customers to buy a cheap kitchen knife from the dollar store for $2, break the tip off and make a sheath from a nickles worth of weight belt webbing.

Really, so many "tech" divers buy from friends who have dealerships and other sources which eliminate the need to pay the big markups that shops need to survive that the whole market really isn't very attractive. I know guys who sell OMS out of their trunks and have seen DUI dru suits sold the same way (though they may not be anymore).

Now, you have to replace or retrain all your instructors and assistants too because the skills of most just don't cut it in front of a bunch of DIRFed divers. You just can't have all those DIRFed guys seeing your staff kneeling all over the bottom like they usually do.

Wait til the SP, AL or about any other sales rep walks in and sees all that Hacyon stuff hanging on the wall (I've been here). Besides, lots of shops just could never make their SP/AL required minimums if they start pushing backplates. When I had a shop SP wanted almost 20K just to get started. If I had invensted that I would have needed to REALLY push those pretty pink and baby blue BC's.


Just as many shops would rather stay away from technical diving, for the one in a thousand divers who will get interested in DIR
9 even hear about it) and for what the sale oportunities are compared to potential lost oportunities, it probably makes more business sense for a recreational shop to get the DIR wannabe out of his shop before they influence other customers. DIR/hogarthian or whatever moves so much of dive shop equipment and training main-stay offerings into the obsolete stroke gear catagory that it would really take a good plan and a big investment to come out ahead as apposed to just letting that VERY SMALL minority move on down the road. Maybe not completely impossible but not easy or likely either and the shop certainly isn't going to get it done by just doing a little online reading.

What "lost opportunities"? The LDS runs students through OW, every specialty course they can imagine, AOW and then what??? Ah yes, we sell them the DM course and make them an instructor after that. Great for a few people who want to go pro, a waste of money for the majority who don't. How about introducing them to tech instead?

Tech diving is a natural transistion for divers wanting to progress. It's quite different from rec diving, but uses much of the same gear. It isn't a replacement for OW or even AOW, it is the next step.

"It's a cult and just stupid" was the reply I got from the LDS manager after inquiring into DIR last year. This was clearly the voice of ignorance and he now has no credibility with me.

I took Essential through an out of state shop and ended up purchasing $200 of equipment while I was there. There is money to be made that does not take from existing business or threaten instruction staff.

The LDS should exist to support divers, not dictate the type of diving they think they should be doing.

 

[scubamikey]

He probably shouldn't discuss DIR if he doesn't know anything about it. However, I don't see any reason to expect that the average dive shop owner or employee should be prepared to discuss it.

I'm not asking him to teach me DIR-F in the shop, but if we're talking about my safety underwater, I'd like the person to be familiar with different equipment and methods. For example, I switched veterinarians because my old vet (an old horse doctor from Cornell) would recommend a steriod shot for my cat's allergies, whereas my new vet (younger small animal specialist from Cornell) would use an inhaler so the steriods didn't get in the muscle tissue, and went directly into the lungs. New methods, new equipment, better and safer results. So some new technology can be a good thing. But yes, some is just marketing and selling gear.

To me, expecting him to be educated on the subject makes about as much sense as expecting him to be educated about commercial diving public safety diving or newt suits..

Well, all those things interest me. I expect my DIVE INSTRUCTOR to have information about DIVING. Or tell me he doesn't know about that specialty but he'll find someone who can answer my questions. If he can't do that, he could be called an UNEDUCATED DIVE GEAR SALESMAN and wear an appropriate badge.

It sounds to me like you're confusing a Hogarthian configuration with DIR. ".

Nope, a person can benefit from a Hogarthian configuration, and a person can benefit from the DIR diving style. But I know some people can confuse them.

I think your next post said what's really up, which has to do with selling gear and staying in business.

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