XDEEP zen deluxe or standard

[boqurant]

I think I comprehend the BP/W balanced rig concept but you do not have any weights that can be ditched in an emergency? Not being critical but trying to understand.

Well, everyone’s different but here’s my thinking, heavily influenced by countless similar posts on SB:

• I’m diving warm-water, single-tank rec, almost always with rented AL80s
• My fixed gear (BPW/harness/cam bands, regs) is approx 5kg dry, and detachable gear (lights, blades, spool, dsmb, etc) perhaps 1kg dry. They have some non-negligible buoyancy so let’s say -5kg buoyancy
• My 3mm/2mm wetsuit probably adds +2kg buoyancy
• A full AL80 at 210bar is approx -1.5kg, and at 50bar is approx +1kg Scuba tank size and buoyancy calculator
• I’ll ignore my own (slightly negative) buoyancy, and any offsetting effects of my tidal lung capacity

So at the start of a dive I’m approx -5 +2 -1.5 = -4.5kgs buoyant. and near the end -5kg +2 +1 = -2kg buoyant.

In the unusual event that my wing punctures (and I still have breathing gas), I can swim this all up at any point, and stay at the surface fairly easily. I can deploy my DSMB for another 3kg (ish) of lift / surface floatation.

In the unusual event that my inflator valve sticks open, I might have a little less time to react, disconnect and empty it before making an uncontrolled ascent, but it’s doable.

In the incredibly unlikely event that Mr Connery turns up and cuts all my LP hoses, I fall unconscious, my buddy kills him and needs to get me to the surface, I fully expect him to cut off my harness!

Having said all that, I typically like to carry an extra 1 or 2kg in trim pockets strapped to the cam bands to adjust my trim, allow for quicker descents, and more easily stick to the bottom if I need to in high currents.

 

[Mike McG]

Good review...what are you referring to when saying: "the little loop"?

Thanks

On the end of the internal pouch there is a loop of webbing which is intended for the user pull in order to slide the pouch out of the weight pocket. The plastic pinch clips on the weight pockets themselves are passed through the loop therefore the pinch clips can snag on the loop after you have releases them. Of course you could choose not to pass the pinch clips through this loop but it could equally mean that the loop is tricky to find in an emergency.

 

[Mike McG]

Ok honestly I do not get your point. There are circumstances where you need(!) Ditchable weights according to balanced rig. You need to balance the risk of a full drysuit flood without any chance of adding air vs loosing the weight ...your choice.

Anyway: if you say loosing a weight is ot a big deal, you probably could have left that weight out anyway. Then you are in the same situation: you dropped a weight, that was not necessary, so no gain in dropping.

Just to give aome scenario: with a balanced rig you are mostly neutral buyont (descent and ascend otherwise of course) during the dive with a minimal amount of air in your wing/bcd. So now something happens, and you can react. If your wing fails, it will not be a so massive effect (or you may drop a little weight). If you loose your ability to move, you are neutral and a buddy can easily step in.
Now ok you loose wing, drysuit and you are immobile. Yeah then it gets complicated. However you would not be able to drop weights yourself. Your buddy has enough lift to compensate or in worse case cuts you loose.

And again: i was explaining the idea behind, not defending or arguing for or against it. Its getting too offtopic now I guess.

I get what you're saying but if your drysuit floods you should still have your BCD. You would need your drysuit to flood AND your BCD to fail simultaneously to be unable to achieve positive buoyancy. Notwithstanding a catastrophic air failure and in all scenarios you’re conscious and can manually inflate the BCD and/or swim (if using a buddy’s alternate). I do dive with ditchable weights but I am considering ditching the ditchables. That being said, I would prefer them with a wetsuit.

 

[LFMarm]

Having said all that, I typically like to carry an extra 1 or 2kg in trim pockets strapped to the cam bands to adjust my trim, allow for quicker descents, and more easily stick to the bottom if I need to in high currents.

Quick descents are typically not advisable. You want to get just under the surface and check for bubbles and for everything to be correctly in trim. For very deep dives you want to reach your bottom quickly but you typically still do the checks shallow and then scooter down or swim down (being negatively buoyant would only marginally speed up the descent). The only situations when I want to avoid staying shallow at the beginning of the dive are in high current with the risk of losing team (in those cases you should go down a line but sometimes that is not possible) or when there are big waves (in which case you can do the checks just a little deeper to avoid the up/down motion).

 

[LFMarm]

I would prefer them with a wetsuit.

For redundant buoyancy with a wetsuit, you could use DSMBs (small ones are about 3kg of lift, large ones are about 24kg of lift).

 

[boqurant]

Quick descents are typically not advisable. You want to get just under the surface and check for bubbles and for everything to be correctly in trim. For very deep dives you want to reach your bottom quickly but you typically still do the checks shallow and then scooter down or swim down (being negatively buoyant would only marginally speed up the descent). The only situations when I want to avoid staying shallow at the beginning of the dive are in high current with the risk of losing team (in those cases you should go down a line but sometimes that is not possible) or when there are big waves (in which case you can do the checks just a little deeper to avoid the up/down motion).

That's fair, and yes - I was thinking of the high current situations without a line - happens quite often off the Musundam coast. Achieving better trim is more important.

I might even backtrack on my statement about sticking to the bottom, cause properly weighted on OC that's just a matter of emptying the lungs and breathing from the bottom of them. It's also better to not need to inflate the wing larger to offset the extra weight (and thus create a parachute to get caught in the current).

A couple of kgs is marginal in any case, and (for now at least) I prefer the security blanket of being very slightly too heavy.

 

[Sascha314]

I get what you're saying but if your drysuit floods you should still have your BCD. You would need your drysuit to flood AND your BCD to fail simultaneously to be unable to achieve positive buoyancy. Notwithstanding a catastrophic air failure and in all scenarios you’re conscious and can manually inflate the BCD and/or swim (if using a buddy’s alternate). I do dive with ditchable weights but I am considering ditching the ditchables. That being said, I would prefer them with a wetsuit.

Well basically thats what I said. The flooded dry suit was an example, that was put against (me) when I described balanced rig. I totally agree dual failure should be pretty pretty rare (if you cut your wing open that should protect the dry suit and other way around). So I just answered that you could put this into account by using ditchable weight. So your concerns should be raised to @Wallowa
He was the one issueing this if ... although "accused" me of using so many if and when

 

[Wallowa]

Well basically thats what I said. The flooded dry suit was an example, that was put against (me) when I described balanced rig. I totally agree dual failure should be pretty pretty rare (if you cut your wing open that should protect the dry suit and other way around). So I just answered that you could put this into account by using ditchable weight. So your concerns should be raised to @Wallowa
He was the one issueing this if ... although "accused" me of using so many if and when

What? No idea what you are trying to convey by referring to me....WAY too many argumentative statements....none of this has to be an either/or....choose what best fits your needs depending on your skills, training, equipment and dive profile....notwithstanding DIR or any agency dictums one size does work best for everyone nor on ever dive....still no idea why carrying droppable weights with a "balanced rig" is a bad idea, but to each their own.

Anyway, too many sharp shooters chiming in with nasty rhetoric and slights….do what works for you. Out here.

 

[gordonscuba]

At a certain skill level, and assuming proper equipment configuration all the way around, ditchable weight is no longer necessary for someone to be as safe as they can be (all diving has nonzero risk). I understand why it is taught to new open water divers.

 

[inquis]

dive....still no idea why carrying droppable weights with a "balanced rig" is a bad idea

For the benefit of others, if the lead comes loose, it's obviously a problem. If the wing fails, you can float (a larger than normal breath can easily compensate for the gas weight in a full AL80) and/or swim up without dropping lead -- that is the very definition of a "balanced rig". Furthermore, your buddy's wing is still functional. Rec divers rely on the buddy for redundant air as a last resort, why not redundant lift? In summary, there is a clear disadvantage but no compelling advantage in the context of a balanced rig.