Why the Prejudice about DIR or GUE

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Bigcape:
What is all the controversy and angst about?

It seems some people will mock statements DIR/GUE writings or people say.
Ive seen "eye rolling" in words.

The GUR/DIR people beleive in a particular method of diving, however the annoying ones are just loud, obnoxous jerks who happen to be divers.

However, not everybody who says "You're gonna die" is a jerk or GUE or DIR. There really are bad divers, even though it has pretty much nothing do do with equipment.

Terry
 
Bigcape:
What is all the controversy and angst about?

It seems some people will mock statements DIR/GUE writings or people say.

Ive seen "eye rolling" in words.

Heck, This is the ONLY section that has "rules" to follow and a link to the TOS, namely on how to reply in the post!!!!


No body seems to bash "cave" divers (even though they get huffy if you wear your mask backwards!)

No body seems to bash the "solo" divers either

Can somebody explain this to me?

Simple, lets start with the name, Doing It Right. By definition if one is "doing it right" then anyone not doing it that same way must be doing it wrong. Right off the bat that puts them at odds with everyone else that isn't DIR because it flies in the face of millions of dives that were conducted safely long before DIR was ever even thought of. Ok, not off to a good start.

In a way it's almost like religion in that some of its followers (the extremists) believe that there is only one true way, theirs, and that the rest of the infidels and non-believers out there must be converted, or at least enlightened as to how their imbecilic ways will lead to their demise. That's not going to help the situation any.

Lets take for example this post that keeps getting linked to. In it there's a reference to what they consider to be an ideal OW course. (This is not aimed at the poster but at the topic.)

"long hose in OW. octos relegated to dustbin of history"

There is no valid reason to require a long hose in OW diving. In cave or wreck diving it may be a requirement for sharing air while being able to move through narrow passages but in OW rec diving it's a nicety, not a necessity.

"BP/W or back-inflates only. jacket BCs relegated to dustbin of history"

Again, more complete rubbish. There is no valid reason why a jacket BC can't be used safely in OW diving.

"nitrox, gas analysis and ability to read a gas analysis sticker (green and yellow bumper stickers relegated to dustin of history)"

More rubbish, there is no reason why an OW diver needs to know this. There are many divers today, and throughout history, that will never breath anything but regular air.

It's the desire to push stuff like this on everybody that makes some of them look like religious fanatics which brings about the push back from others. Their counter-argument is that dive training by other agencies is lacking, and that may be true, but it' a completely seperate subject and one that forced gear selection and nitrox classes isn't going to solve.

Now to be fair I feel I should also point out that there were some really good suggestions in there as well like,

"introductory gas management skills (focus on simple rules)" and

"introductory rescue skills (primarily assisting buddies, and towing)" and

"buoyancy control and skills done neutral"

That's all good stuff that ANY diver can use and should be taught right from the start.

I think another reason they get bashed is things like the TOS for the DIR forum. It seems pretty weak when rules have to be set up so that nobody is allowed to voice an opposing point of view. Herman pointed it out perfectly. He said something that, and I read it, seemed like a very level headed response to the OP's original question that didn't say anything bad about DIR other than pointing out that there's middle ground between going full DIR and not doing it at all. He was immediately jumped on for not following the party line and violating the TOS that says thou shalt not challenge DIR. Doing things like that doesn't do anything to help earn respect. If the position is strong then there should be no problem arguing it based solely on its merit.

So, what causes the bashing? Attitude. Or more specifically, the attitude projected by an apparently small minority of their members.
 
TheRedHead:
Any diver can take the time to do skills work. The amount of time spent with the instructor is very short and it is up to the diver to become proficient. I think the experience of being stressed until your team falls apart is the most valuable in training.

A very good point-my first dive in Grateful Diver's AOW class was a mid-water nav dive in so-so viz (it was actually pretty good for the summer in Puget Sound, but that is relative). The whole dive was at 20 feet, we totally mucked it up repeatedly (my first dive with my team mate, so that certainly had something to do with it, plus it was a fair amount of task loading), and I learned more from the failures of that dive than any of my previous 20 dives I'd done for fun.

It also set up the next 5 dives of the weekend nicely, after going through that dive and failing, doing things like shooting bags, air share drills, and light salvage work with a lift bag was much easier. The concept I've carried away from that weekend is that you don't need to be with an instructor to improve stills (in fact, this just isn't feasible in any context, being proficient with these skills requires lots of practice), you just have to practice and push the team a bit (within the margins of safety). In essence, that one dive made me understand the importance of regularly working on skills. Although that lesson should have been hammered into me in OW, I still feel lucky to learn it around dive 20 or so.
 
Dragon, you don't understand the concepts. Fundamental skills are simply building blocks. None of them are necessary for easy open water dives, but can be built upon for increased complexity (deco, scooter, cave, wreck) without having to unlearn anything. Having said that, the long hose/bungeed back up is the best method for sharing air and that existed long before the name DIR was coined. I do agree that Doing it Right is an off-putting moniker.
 
Bigcape:
What is all the controversy and angst about?

It seems some people will mock statements DIR/GUE writings or people say.

Ive seen "eye rolling" in words.

Heck, This is the ONLY section that has "rules" to follow and a link to the TOS, namely on how to reply in the post!!!!


No body seems to bash "cave" divers (even though they get huffy if you wear your mask backwards!)

No body seems to bash the "solo" divers either

Can somebody explain this to me?


It was worse before they made the dir forum a no trolling zone

As has been said no one wants to hear, "your gonna die if you dont do it my way", or "you might as well learn this way now cause your gonna do it this way eventually" while the first quote isn't a direct quote, it does comes across that way.

There are a few folks on both sides of the fence that stir the pot. I am quite certain some do it for fun. (why the no trolling zone)

I can deal with it all and enjoy reading some posts in the dir forum and no im not a dir diver and I don't post there.

Since this thread has been started there is one comment that I have wanted to make, but kept quiet as I do not wish to stir that pot.

I fully understand the no-trolling-zone as it was horrible, but I have an issue where Dir divers are encouraged to take dir forward to other forums, but where you cannot make an anti dir comment in the dir forum as they will delete it. I don't mean an offensive anti dir statement, I just have the feeling if I wanted to offer an opposing view or questioned a portion of the dir philosophy that it would get squashed. That is pretty one sided and doesn't allow for any brainstorming at all on a topic.

I truely believe that the majority of DIR/HOG/and non-specific divers get along famously. I have had very nice pm conversations with dir divers and have been on boats with them and had a great time as well.

It is amazing that when you are u/w all is peaceful, when you get behind a keyboard - its like road rage for a few. As for the term stroke, that one word should simply be banned from sb. If one wishes not to dive with someone so be it, but name calling just doesn't work for me. And I tend to ignore even the most intelligent comment from one who resorts to such tactics.

Maybe NetDoc can write a script and cron job to search and replace Stoke with Diver or some other friendly term:wink:

Dive safe, often and have fun:D

Cheers
 
I also wanted to say, that when I'm bored to death, it is fun to go back and read some of the flames between a few folks - these were from the days before the no trolling zone.

I found it very interesting to read the threads that used to start along the lines of

"honest I'm not trying to start anything here, but......"

obviously the real intent was to start the hostilities......

seriously those should never have happened, but since they are there.....well why not have a good laugh...

:D
 
There is still a lot of bashing back and forth over what is considered "deep air," standard mixes and the fact that some divers do not access to the mixes either by lack of training, funds, or location.
 
Dragon2115:
"nitrox, gas analysis and ability to read a gas analysis sticker (green and yellow bumper stickers relegated to dustin of history)"

More rubbish, there is no reason why an OW diver needs to know this. There are many divers today, and throughout history, that will never breath anything but regular air.

With the popularity of alternate mixes, I think the only time you can get by without analyzing your tank, is if you own it, and fill it yourself from your own compressor, and never get a fill anywhere else and don't do any mixed gasses.

Other than that, you can really never be certain what's in the tank without analyzing it.

Even if you only dive air, if you didn't do the fill yourself, you still need to analyze it.

Terry
 
So so viz?!?!?!?!?!? I saw a bolt snap from 20' away in the Sound in August!

dsteding:
A very good point-my first dive in Grateful Diver's AOW class was a mid-water nav dive in so-so viz (it was actually pretty good for the summer in Puget Sound, but that is relative). The whole dive was at 20 feet, we totally mucked it up repeatedly (my first dive with my team mate, so that certainly had something to do with it, plus it was a fair amount of task loading), and I learned more from the failures of that dive than any of my previous 20 dives I'd done for fun.

It also set up the next 5 dives of the weekend nicely, after going through that dive and failing, doing things like shooting bags, air share drills, and light salvage work with a lift bag was much easier. The concept I've carried away from that weekend is that you don't need to be with an instructor to improve stills (in fact, this just isn't feasible in any context, being proficient with these skills requires lots of practice), you just have to practice and push the team a bit (within the margins of safety). In essence, that one dive made me understand the importance of regularly working on skills. Although that lesson should have been hammered into me in OW, I still feel lucky to learn it around dive 20 or so.
 
The nitrox sticker comment has to do with the practice of marking MOD only on deco gas bottles and really makes sense. If you have a cylinder marked 70 in 4 inch numbers, you don't have to worry about reading the analysis sticker and determining that it is 50% and calculating the MOD. All you need to know is that you don't breathe from that bottle below 70 feet.
 
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