Why the Prejudice about DIR or GUE

[Bigcape]

Well, I just read the first 20 posts... that should give you your answer

I don't remember where I posted it but I said the same thing. I agree with you.

 

[rongoodman]

In OW I don't think the issue is as much the long hose as it is that the best choice is to always donate the primary--you want to provide the stressed OOA diver with a regulator that is known to be working and has the correct gas. The extra length is nice, but not necessary. You can always hold the OOA diver close, with more hose he can swim next to you comfortably too.

 

[Ron Brandt]

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I understand it is superior in a cave situation, but if I'm sharing air in OW, I want to be able to hang on to that person so they don't bolt to the surface in a panic. If I have a hold of them, I can dump their air, etc.

That paniced diver can kill you. The paniced diver WILL take the reg from your mouth as that is one that is not only readly seen but also working.

Ron

 

[TheRedHead]

I chose to ask who I asked. Which group are you? Maybe you can answer the question for me from your perspective.

I'm not in any group or maybe I belong to many groups.

A lot of people don't understand the DIR big picture and dwell upon the components without knowing the reasoning behind them. There are many old flame wars that haven't been forgetten. Another reason is that the name itself rankles people. Some people probably don't like the style of training and provisional status granted to most students. Many older, experienced divers get irritated by the strong opinions of newly minted DIR divers (who may be very new to diving) Then there will be unexpected reasons that can only be uncovered by the people who hold the opinion.

 

[lamont]

Not trying to bash, this is truely a question. Can you explain to me why a long hose back-up it better? I understand it is superior in a cave situation, but if I'm sharing air in OW, I want to be able to hang on to that person so they don't bolt to the surface in a panic. If I have a hold of them, I can dump their air, etc.

Nothing stopping you from grabbing them when you've got a long hose on. In fact, if a random OW diver OOAs me (this can happen at popular divesites), I'm probably going to donate, grab them, and then assert control over the entire situation and control their buoyancy for them and deal with everything else until I can see that they're not going to panic.

However, a direct ascent holding onto your buddy is not always the best solution, even on OW dives. We have a dive site here where ferry traffic goes directly over the most popular location where all the Giant Pacific Octos are at. If a diver goes OOA on me there I will not want to do a direct ascent and will prefer to swim upslope if I have the gas for it. Also, most OW divers are not skilled enough to do a direct ascent with no visual reference without blowing by their stops -- so I'm probably still going to prefer to go upslope so that there's a hard bottom under the diver and steer them to ropes and pilings where they can hang on if they need to. Similarly if someone OOAs you on a wreck dive and the upline is close and within visual range and you've got the gas for it, you are better off swimming to the upline -- particularly if the OOA diver is not on your team and you don't know their skill level (and going OOA is sort of an indication in the first place).

Also, the reaction to an OOA with the long hose is immediate and it works every time. Once you register that the other diver is OOA you can immediate deploy a working regulator, correctly oriented and get it into the victim's mouth. Then you know exactly where your backup regulator is and can get it into your mouth and the emergency is solved. An octo configuration can have the octo come out of its holder during the dive and not be where it is supposed to be when the OOA happens. Or the octo is inside a pocket or is held down so tightly that it becomes difficult to deploy. And I was involved in a rescue attempt where failure to deploy the octo and failure to complete an OOA immediately preceeded a rapid ascent to the surface (from only about 10-20 feet) and fatal embolism, so I'm not talking theoretically.

The long hose solves the problems which are inherant in any kind of quick-release configuration (releases when you don't want it to, doesn't release when you do). Your mouth is the ultimate quick release, because if it gets pulled out during the dive you are immediately incentivized to fix it quickly, while you can always spit out the reg in your mouth quickly and consistently. The bungee backup is also always going to be right under your chin and in probably 100s of OOAs that I've done I've never had an issue with finding it (and neither has any of my buddies).

Donating the primary also has other benefits in that the regs are always where you know where they are and if the free-flow you will either get a face-full of bubbles or you will feel the bubbles around your neck and hear them. If an octo slips out of its holder it can drag in the bottom, or drag behind you and free flow.

Also as others posted, donating the primary optimizes for the circumstance where the OOA diver simply rips the regulator out of your mouth....

 

[Doubles]

Not trying to bash, this is truely a question. Can you explain to me why a long hose back-up it better? I understand it is superior in a cave situation, but if I'm sharing air in OW, I want to be able to hang on to that person so they don't bolt to the surface in a panic. If I have a hold of them, I can dump their air, etc.

First Lamont has already given an excellent response to this question

But I want to add that if the OOA diver wants to breath, that diver isn't going any farther away from you than the length of that hose.

 

[marusso]

Still waiting for someone else to sign up for the Oct. 21 Dir-F class in Fort Lauderdale. Come on people! I need a buddy!

 

[jeraldjcook]

Thanks lamont, that’s what I was looking for.

 

[Bigcape]

Simple, lets start with the name, Doing It Right. By definition if one is "doing it right" then anyone not doing it that same way must be doing it wrong. Right off the bat that puts them at odds with everyone else that isn't DIR because it flies in the face of millions of dives that were conducted safely long before DIR was ever even thought of. Ok, not off to a good start.

In a way it's almost like religion in that some of its followers (the extremists) believe that there is only one true way, theirs, and that the rest of the infidels and non-believers out there must be converted, or at least enlightened as to how their imbecilic ways will lead to their demise. That's not going to help the situation any.

Lets take for example this post that keeps getting linked to. In it there's a reference to what they consider to be an ideal OW course. (This is not aimed at the poster but at the topic.)

"long hose in OW. octos relegated to dustbin of history"

There is no valid reason to require a long hose in OW diving. In cave or wreck diving it may be a requirement for sharing air while being able to move through narrow passages but in OW rec diving it's a nicety, not a necessity.

"BP/W or back-inflates only. jacket BCs relegated to dustbin of history"

Again, more complete rubbish. There is no valid reason why a jacket BC can't be used safely in OW diving.

"nitrox, gas analysis and ability to read a gas analysis sticker (green and yellow bumper stickers relegated to dustin of history)"

More rubbish, there is no reason why an OW diver needs to know this. There are many divers today, and throughout history, that will never breath anything but regular air.

It's the desire to push stuff like this on everybody that makes some of them look like religious fanatics which brings about the push back from others. Their counter-argument is that dive training by other agencies is lacking, and that may be true, but it' a completely seperate subject and one that forced gear selection and nitrox classes isn't going to solve.

Now to be fair I feel I should also point out that there were some really good suggestions in there as well like,

"introductory gas management skills (focus on simple rules)" and

"introductory rescue skills (primarily assisting buddies, and towing)" and

"buoyancy control and skills done neutral"

That's all good stuff that ANY diver can use and should be taught right from the start.

I think another reason they get bashed is things like the TOS for the DIR forum. It seems pretty weak when rules have to be set up so that nobody is allowed to voice an opposing point of view. Herman pointed it out perfectly. He said something that, and I read it, seemed like a very level headed response to the OP's original question that didn't say anything bad about DIR other than pointing out that there's middle ground between going full DIR and not doing it at all. He was immediately jumped on for not following the party line and violating the TOS that says thou shalt not challenge DIR. Doing things like that doesn't do anything to help earn respect. If the position is strong then there should be no problem arguing it based solely on its merit.

So, what causes the bashing? Attitude. Or more specifically, the attitude projected by an apparently small minority of their members.

If this was the ONLY answer I got and the tread was locked I would have been satisfied!

Very well written and could applied to varied topics.

 

[TheRedHead]

If this was the ONLY answer I got and the tread was locked I would have been satisfied!

Very well written and could applied to varied topics.

I felt that was answer from someone who dwells on the components and doesn't understand the big picture.