Why not BP/W for Beginner?

[Sloth]

Let's look at independent dive boats; those without retail shops. They are probably paying more for gear because they do not retail, but I don't know any that have back inflate rigs for guests without gear.

It could be that jacket BC's are used on the vast majority of vacation dives because they are the best choice for the vast majority of vacation divers. I am sure some would remove "vacation" from the previous sentence and still be correct.

Best choice because they are the best for new divers or best choice because the are the cheapest for an operator to purchase up front? In my opinion its because of costs that vacation divers may only see a jacket BC as an option. Thankfully some dive ops are allowing for more options for tourists even as far as having B/W for rent.

I dive on a charter boat every weekend and I've been surprised lately by the numbers of both locals and tourists I see with B/W. On the advance charters its now rare that I'm the only one with a B/W setup.

 

[rstofer]

Then you need to become a better shopper. I don't know anyone who spent more than half what a decent jacket costs.

Hm... A jacket from XS Scuba costs about $380 (I didn't do a lot of shopping) and a DSS BP/W costs about $524 (large SS plate with Pro-Fit Harness and LCD 30 wing). The wings alone (no plate/harness) are expensive - usually in the $300+ price range.

Online Scuba Gear - XS Scuba Nekton Weight Integrated Jacket BCD

TUSA Passage Integrated BC

As to maintenance: I don't see why a jacket should cost any more to maintain than any other scheme. I have had my SeaQuest ADVi for more than 20 years and have never spent a dime on maintenance. Certainly, I have had the AIR 2 device serviced from time to time but nothing for the BC itself.

I did retire the ADVi in favor of a DSS BP/W and I like the new configuration. But there is nothing wrong with the old BC other than some superficial cracking of plastic trim pieces and it's a little threadbare on the bottom of one of the side panels. I would still dive with it.

Richard

 

[Standingbear56]

I really don't think the difference in cost should be much of a issue. We can do an aluminum back plate with a HOG harness and 30# wing for $378.75. We have jacket BCD's going for much more. I think it all boils down to what equipment the store has a better price margin on and/or what equipment the shop has already invested in for teaching students, and/or what the instructor feels comfortable teaching students in. All too many instructors and/or shops feel that a BP/W is for "technical" only and thus shy away from it. This way a student buys a jacket style initally, then later has to buy a BP/W configuration anyways, when s/he goes into advanced forms of diving. What really makes this funny is that even PADI says you can teach an open water student in a HOG/DIR configuration.
Take care & Happy Holidays,
George

 

[Nemrod]

First off, I'm new to diving and new to this board so I'm still very green.

I am planning my dive gear purchases and without a large amount of disposable income I would like to be able to make the right equipment purchase the first go round. From what I have read, there is alot to be said for a BP/W setup. It appeals to me partly because of simplicity, and because I can see the benefits of being able to maintain a horizontal attitude. My experiences with a jacket style BC have resulted with me finning to remain close to level.

My long winded question is this, when checking out gear at my local LDS, I am steered towards a jacket style BC. Is there a reason why a beginner should choose to not use a BP/W?

Thanks for the information I've already picked up from lurking around for a while!

The answer is simple, your local dive retail outlet does not have any wing/BP but they do have plenty of 800 dollars poodle jackets from which to choose. They are a huge profit center for dive shops.

N

 

[SparticleBrane]

I have the DSS BP/W and, yes, if the bladder is overinflated, it WILL push the diver forward, especially if they are using a buoyant tank like an Al 80. So, from personal experience, I am convinced that this wives' tale is true.

There's a simple solution to that -- don't inflate the wing more than you need to, to stay on the surface.

Hm... A jacket from XS Scuba costs about $380 (I didn't do a lot of shopping) and a DSS BP/W costs about $524 (large SS plate with Pro-Fit Harness and LCD 30 wing). The wings alone (no plate/harness) are expensive - usually in the $300+ price range.

Forget the "pro-fit" and get the hog harness...easier, much more simple, and saves you $54.

 

[ShakaZulu]

Who are you people?

 

[halocline]

Hello guys,

I have to say that I did most of my SSI pool dives with a Zeagle Scout and I was having a really hard time staying horizontal. Then I bought my gear, and I got a Dacor Talon that is a jacket BC and I am able to get horizontal and stay that way very easily.

Trim is all about weight distribution. Back inflates don't do anything differently than jackets in that regard. As far as the location of the air bubble in the bladder, that's going to move around depending on your trim, not determine your trim. There's almost never enough air in the bladder while diving to do that, unless you're either way over weighted or diving in very cold water, deep, with a big tank with lots of gas.

Who knows why you were better trimmed in the jacket; maybe your weighting was different.

 

[UnderSeaBumbleBee]

Hm... A jacket from XS Scuba costs about $380 (I didn't do a lot of shopping) and a DSS BP/W costs about $524 (large SS plate with Pro-Fit Harness and LCD 30 wing). The wings alone (no plate/harness) are expensive - usually in the $300+ price range.

Tobin's gear at DSS is excellent gear. But if we are talking cost wars, you can get a complete Golem Gear rig on sale right now the next few days for $370, so the $10 advantage goes to bp/w. Golem Gear, Inc.

There are enough deals out there for jackets as well as back plate and wing combo's that price really should not be the deciding factor.

I have been diving a Golem rig for a couple of years. I learned to dive in Scuba Pro gear. All things considered and a couple of years down the road, I am very happy with my gear and I would buy it again.

The most important in thing in gettin gear is deciding what is important to you. Some folks like to stay with they type the learned to dive with--and there is nothing wrong with that. Some have other considerations and that is fine to consider too. For me, the jacket gear always felt sloppy and rubbed some nasty spots on me when I dove without a wet suit. I found the shifting to be most uncomfortable. I also did not like how it felt when I inflated it. So I began to look for gear that removed those problems for me. I am also working on dropping a few pounds and I didn't want to have to keep buying gear as my size changed in any direction. I have a few curves and wanted something that would work well with my shape.

So after much research and talking with many owners various types of gear, many satified and others not so much, I decided that I wanted a bp/w. For me that has turned out to be a good choice. After that I spent a lot of time looking at price and quality. Both were important to me. I priced out the system a ton of ways from a ton of places. In the end Jakub at Golem got my business. It sometimes takes him a few days to get back with you, but the price and quality were well worth it. He has been great to work with.

There are many places you could purchase a bp/w for an excellent price this time of year. Golem, DSS, Scuba Toys, and Dive Sports. All are members of the board and all provide excellent products and customer service. I have had dealings with all of them and could recommend any of them in good faith. The first two the companies that make the gear and the second two are retail shops that carry many lines of gear.

And here is my deal or connection to the above 4 companies. When I joined the board, other satisfied customers told me about these dealers and how good they are. I called on my own, got great service, prices, and products. So now I tell others. As long as I know they are still running a top notch op, I keep spreading the good word as a favor since others were kind enough to share the info with me. As soon as they slip, I promise to bad mouth the accordingly and warn others to stay clear. So far years after dealing with all of them, they continue to do a good job.

Anyway, back to my thought. Decide what things about the gear are important to you and then find gear that will meet those needs or desires. Each of us have a little bit different set of wants and needs. There are enough choices out there so once you decide what you want, there is a product waiting to meet that need.

 

[ScubaSteve]

I have to agree with most that it all revolves around the upsell. With the exception of the misconception that BP&W is only for tecjh diving, it all has to do with shops finding ways to make more money. That shops that do not sell BP&W, it is obvious....they must sell poodle jackets. Those that sell the BP&W, will likely try to sell you on the "this is the best BCD for beginners because" poodle jacket so that once you grow as a diver, you will come in for the upgrade to BP&W. I think it can also be explained partially by the fact that a poodle jacket is very easily "one size fits everybody in a range".

 

[diverbob]

I think the reason shops push the jacket style is because it is easier to do the different skills going through OW class, mainly the removal and replacement on the surface and underwater. I know 100 people are going to follow this up saying they didn't have any problems with it, and its just as easy to do. I am in that boat as well, it wasn't an issue for me. However trying to find the hole to put your arm through is a lot easier when the hole is inflated, unlike trying to fight with a strap, that is sometimes not even adjustable (depending on what harness you have)

As many people mentioned, try different ones, and see what works best for you. If the DiveRite tech tour comes to your area, go there and try out everything they have, with different harnesses and wings, and then make your own decision.

When you go to the LDS, and you feel they are pushing you towards a jacket, dont just walk out and find a new shop, ask them questions, ask them why they prefer jacket over BP/W.