Why not BP/W for Beginner?

[Nemrod]

Is this Europeon Vacation? I doubt the average diver in Europe is any better at swimming that is the average diver in the North American Economic Union. Lot's of people think they can swim, most actually cannot. Thinking is not the same as doing. What most if not all agencies require as a swimming test is proof of nothing. I have watched PadI classes over the years, pretty much, they cannot swim. Cannot help it if you don't like that observation, not likeing it does not dissaude me from observing the the truth of it. Oh, BTW, dog paddling is not a stroke, swimming is done WITHOUT fins, bottom crawling the shallow end of the pool and hanging on the edges does not count.

I will stay with what I said.

N

 

[Standingbear56]

Well, I recall in my mid-90's PADI OW class that a lot was made of the expectation that the BC should float you face-up in the event you passed out on the way to the surface.

I'm quite sure you have heard it. Back in the 90's that was unfortunately a common belief, and instructors of many agencies (not just PADI) incorrectly taught that. However this misconception has been long since corrected. If there is any instructors still teaching this dangerous concept, they are in serious need of some remedial training as to the difference between a BCD and a certified Life Jacket. I don't know of any agency which still says a BCD should be able to float you face up. The only style of BCD that can do that consistently that I am aware of, is the old front mount style.
Take care,
George

 

[Standingbear56]

Is this Europeon Vacation? I doubt the average diver in Europe is any better at swimming that is the average diver in the North American Economic Union. Lot's of people think they can swim, most actually cannot. Thinking is not the same as doing. What most if not all agencies require as a swimming test is proof of nothing. I have watched PadI classes over the years, pretty much, they cannot swim. Cannot help it if you don't like that observation, not likeing it does not dissaude me from observing the the truth of it. Oh, BTW, dog paddling is not a stroke, swimming is done WITHOUT fins, bottom crawling the shallow end of the pool and hanging on the edges does not count.

I will stay with what I said.

N

I've been there for vacation and business. Again, never had a problem, even when teaching scuba. I have also seen divers from all agencies who "cannot swim" Don't pick on just one agency, when they all can produce divers with poor swimming abilities and many times do.
Through out my 40+ years of diving, military and otherwise, I have seen divers of ALL agencies, including the European ones in difficult situations. I see no reason to lash out at any of these agencies for it. No agency standards are 100% fool proof.
The swimming "tests" of scuba agencies is not designed to be an endurance test, it is only to try to assure a minimum level of comfort. If you want an all out endurance swim test, become a "combat swimmer".
BTW, last time I checked, PADI is huge in Europe.....

 

[ScubaSteve]

Is this Europeon Vacation? I doubt the average diver in Europe is any better at swimming that is the average diver in the North American Economic Union. Lot's of people think they can swim, most actually cannot. Thinking is not the same as doing. What most if not all agencies require as a swimming test is proof of nothing. I have watched PadI classes over the years, pretty much, they cannot swim. Cannot help it if you don't like that observation, not likeing it does not dissaude me from observing the the truth of it. Oh, BTW, dog paddling is not a stroke, swimming is done WITHOUT fins, bottom crawling the shallow end of the pool and hanging on the edges does not count.

I will stay with what I said.

N

Do any of the agencies clearly define what a swim test is? You mention that "dog paddle" is not a stroke but last I checked, it would keep you on the surface with your head above water and maybe even for long enough to be rescued. So leave the K9 out of it . I was serious about my question because the way you are talking it sounds like you have to be an Olympic quality swimmer with all known strokes mastered before you can be certified. As I recall (6 years ago is not that long but it still is) I had to do laps but I was not being judged on my form. Or has this changed?

 

[Nemrod]

LOL, you guys are killing me, still, I don't know or understand what Europe has to do with anything? As to me picking on PadI, they started it and I have a long ways to go yet.

As to interpreting what I said as in needing to be an Olympic swimmer to be a scuba diver, give me a break, I know you are just pulling my leg or something, knowing a stroke or two and being able to swim a few lengths of a pool without exhausting oneself and doing so using a recognized and legitimate swimming stroke hardly qualifies as an "Olympic" swimmer but it DOES qualify as being a swimmer, a term that does not apply to most C carded divers, especially those that got their little PadI fish ID cards. Let's see now, a fellow is going to be on boats and on and around the water, get in the ocean, go under the water, deal with currents and other stress, yeah, just me I suppose, but swimming, that is your life support function.

A direct answer to the question just posed, if the laps swam included dog paddling, floating on the back with lazy arms flops, and gutter hanging, no, those laps should be counted negative on the total. Everybody is all about safety, if you cannot swim, you are not safe out of the starting gate--period.

N

 

[Standingbear56]

In most agencies, the swimming evaluation consists of a 200 - 220 yard swim utilizing any stroke or any combination of strokes and there is no time limit. This is for the surface swim, and if you touch bottom or hold on the sides you have to redo your swim. They also include a 10 minute tread/float exercise and a 50ft underwater swim. In some agencies, these can be intragrated into the course itself while others require it to be completed before starting the actual course. PADI also allows the option of a 300 yard mask snorkel fin swim in place of the 200 yard swim. In all cases, if the student is wearing any kind of exposure equipment providing buoyancy, they must be weighted for neutral.
Again, none of this is designed to be an endurance test. Any high school student on a swim team can easily accomplish these evaluations. NONE of these evaluations guarantee that a person is a strong swimmer - it just provides a basis for assessing a persons relative comfort in the water. They were not intended to do more.

 

[Standingbear56]

As to me picking on PadI, they started it and I have a long ways to go yet.

Honest question - when did PADI start picking on you? R U referring to PADI the agency or PADI members?
As far as ripping apart agencies and their standards or business models, just about any experienced diver/instructor can do that to any agency. What's the point? Only by hitting their bottom lines are any of the agencies going to change. I'm not saying that changes aren't needed, but this is not a new subject on the board. Have all the forums on agencies needing to change brought about change?
Take care,
George

 

[String]

Have relatives in Europe, never had a problem. I repeat my statement.

If they've certified without a swim test in the last 6-10 years or so then the instructor/dive shop is actually breaking the law. And agency standards.

That said, i dont see what swimming has to do with Scuba. I wear fins and diving gear for a reason - its easier with them. I cant imagine any situation where i'd want to ditch ALL my gear including fins and then swim somewhere.
The swim test is just that - seeing you can go a certain distance whilst keeping your head above water. It doesnt matter what stroke you use provided you can do that.

 

[Standingbear56]

If they've certified without a swim test in the last 6-10 years or so then the instructor/dive shop is actually breaking the law. And agency standards.

They completed all requirements including the swim tests. I don't know of any agency that allows certification without swim tests.

That said, i dont see what swimming has to do with Scuba. I wear fins and diving gear for a reason - its easier with them. I cant imagine any situation where i'd want to ditch ALL my gear including fins and then swim somewhere.
The swim test is just that - seeing you can go a certain distance whilst keeping your head above water. It doesnt matter what stroke you use provided you can do that.

Like I've said earlier - the swim evaluations are only to help establish a baseline on the student's comfort in the water. In an emergency, I can see a diver ditching weights and the scuba unit in order to swim a distance in an emergency, but again, this is not what the evals are all about.

BTW, I think we've digressed from the OP's question about BP/W for beginners, so let's try to bring it back.

Since all of the PADI students here can swim, having their face in the water whether caused by a wing or otherwise is not panic inducing. Since we do teach them in BP/Ws, they are taught how to properly trim them out. So to the original OP - yes, a student can be taught OW in a BP/W.
Thanks,
George

 

[String]

There is at least one PADI outfit i can think of in the UK that does teach all students with backplate/wing (and long hose) from day 1. Its completely within standards.