Why I have decided to stop shopping for ANYTHING at the LDS

[mike_s]

Honestly, I'm a little surprised we haven't seen reports of this starting to occur.

The LDS business model is really broken at this point and needs to change.

I had this "overprice" happen to me once at one of the "local dive shops"
that I don't spend money at anymore.

Everything they sell is "list price". Well that's not great, but I wanted
to get it that day if possible though I didn't really need it that quick.

I asked him how much the items was and noted that it was list price
and a little high. I asked them if they could do any better on price
and they said no.... So, oh well, lemme have it...

Well, like most of their items, they are out of stock of the one that
is "exactly" what you need. So I asked him to order it and how
long it would take. The shop manager told me that it'd be here
next week and that I needed to go ahead and pay for it to order
something. After i got my wallet out and he rang it up, he told
me that there was a 20% special order fee on anything that they
had to order for individuals.

I said "what?", you want me to pay 20% over list price on
something that you don't stock because you are behind on
your ordering? I told him that I could order this out of
a catalog for 40% cheaper than list price, needless to say
not having to charge 20% special order fee.

He then argued with me that if I ordered it that I would have
to pay shipping, etc..

I told him that if I was going to have to pay 20% for him
to place an order form, then I could do it for free and also
get it 40% cheaper. Ending up buying at another shop
that gave it to me for 30% discount off list price.

I haven't bought an item from the "problem shop" since.

Luckily now we've got another local dive shop now that
will give you competitive pricing with anywhere else,
including internet sites.

What happened to the "other store" that charges list price
for everything? I still get emails from them every now and
then with their quarterly newsletter. The last email I got
from them was announcing the "going out of business sale"
at one of their two store locations. I heard that the
other store wasn't far from going belly-up either. It
shows that their "going out of business" issue
was "self inflicted".

 

[macado]

... and if you think scuba gear is expensive, wait'll you gotta maintain a compressor ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob,
Okay, I may have been over exaggerating a bit because I have a tendency to do that ) What I meant to say is, if the shop price is fair and they treat me well, I'll definitely return and spend money. They realize I will always need them for air and other things even if I didn't buy everything from them.

I work part time as a bartender and I think of it has the same philosophy. If they take care of me, I'll take care of them. My LDS has given my numerous free air fills because i've bought lots of things from them, they know that I bought both my regulators online yet they haven't blacklisted me yet. This is more along the lines of what I meant. It seems like some of you have been having some really bad luck with your LDS. I've gotten "the speech" before but never to the severity level that some of you on this board have experienced

-Mike

 

[Hoosier]

I don't give any pennies to my nearest LDS because

1. They lie
2. All price is MSRP
3. If you don't buy the gear from them, their service price is ridiculous and a long delay.
4. It takes two weeks to get a nitrox refill.
5. They violate all PADI standards for their convenience.

Why should I go there?

In addition, there is no reason LDS can mark up 100% because they are providing $3/air. Who asked $3 per air? It is their market strategy to bring in the customers. I am sick and tired of hearing about air source threats. Do you think how long that kind of tactic lasts? Don't you see why many new divers are crazy about the internet shops? Many new divers or customers have been tired of their LDSs' prices and services. LDSs are making customers to get out of their shops, not customers.

Please... I am talking about this argument in the terms of the regular and normal customers' viewpoints. Don't generalize all case based on your positions, DM or instructor, that can get the additional discounts or free diving trips thanks to your customers' money. Nobody consider any DM or instructors at the regular customers. Otherwise, it is only you guys warehouse, not others.

 

[lamont]

... and if you think scuba gear is expensive, wait'll you gotta maintain a compressor ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Thing is, if they're not passing that cost along, and they're trying to guilt their customers into paying more for gear than they pay online, they're not going to have a lot of success.

The LDS model has been to undercharge for fills, undercharge for classes, and overprice on gear. Now that the Internet is undercutting those gear sales, the model is completely unprofitable in every area and needs to change. Trying to maintain that model through guilt isn't going to work.

IMO, the LDS needs to either compete effectively online and boost sales volume so that they can survive on lower margins, or else start charging more for fills, classes and trips or else fill a niche like technical diving. If that all fails, there will always be the warm-water wussie newbie scuba diver market (but that market has generally been captured by now) and then just co-op fill stations.

It isn't my problem the LDS business model is broke... Textbook 'Schumpeterian' Creative Destruction...

We may all wind up paying more for fills, but that is because the cost of fills was distorted, and guilting us into paying more for gear to pay less for fills is trying to perpetuate a market distortion just to keep things the same...

 

[Chris Sawallich]

I do not understand some of the mentalities here... I have seen a couple of posts about the LDS and buying Air... Why should I have to pay and extreme ammount for something at an LDS just because it is the only place I can buy Air?? I do not pay an extreme ammout for all of my groceries because that is is only place I can buy eggs... Have I gone into my LDS and gotten free air fills.. I would be lying if I said no, but The only time they discount an air fill is when I buy something at a 100% mark up... Sounds like good business stratgey here, Sucker them back in to spend more because I discounted a 3.00 air fill. To bad the unknowing Diver/consumer doesnt know that he just bought a piece of equipment for 100% markup and goes back for more because he got a free air fill..

Leo, you knew that you were going to stir up a hornets nest with this one, didnt you...

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I do not understand some of the mentalities here... I have seen a couple of posts about the LDS and buying Air... Why should I have to pay and extreme ammount for something at an LDS just because it is the only place I can buy Air?? I do not pay an extreme ammout for all of my groceries because that is is only place I can buy eggs... Have I gone into my LDS and gotten free air fills.. I would be lying if I said no, but The only time they discount an air fill is when I buy something at a 100% mark up... Sounds like good business stratgey here, Sucker them back in to spend more because I discounted a 3.00 air fill. To bad the unknowing Diver/consumer doesnt know that he just bought a piece of equipment for 100% markup and goes back for more because he got a free air fill..

Leo, you knew that you were going to stir up a hornets nest with this one, didnt you...

Thing is ... that $3 air fill may have cost the LDS upwards of $40 when you add up the cost of the fill station, banks, electricity, annual maintenance, taxes, and overhead. And that class you paid $90 for may have cost the LDS upwards of $250 per student when you add up the cost of classroom space, materials, equipment, staff, pool, gear, insurance, and transport.

Lamont is quite correct about the skewed business model ... and when they do decide to change it, all the same folks who are now complaining about gear prices will then be complaining about the cost of fills and classes.

There's no getting around it ... diving isn't a recreational activity for people who like to count pennies. It's a "pay me now or pay me later" proposition. And when it gets to the point where the LDS owners are only seeing customers for air fills, they'll be faced with the inevitable choice of charging outrageous sums for air fills or shutting down.

Around here, they're shutting down at an alarming rate.

On the other side of the argument ... there's also no excuse for not treating a customer with absolute honesty and courtesy. That side of the discussion is, IMO, completely justified. Unfortunately, around here the sharks seem to be the ones who are managing to find a way to stay afloat, while the more customer-oriented shops are closing down ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[mikswi]

I find it almost comical (as well as sad) that those that say " I can get it cheaper online" dont fully realize the difference between a LDS & an online shop with little/minimal overhead. Now, thats not to say that online shops don't have their place......

I just think its ignorant as well as unfair to compare the 2. But,........., if im not careful, I will be drawn into a debate that has been debated to death!!

 

[Chris Sawallich]

Thing is ... that $3 air fill may have cost the LDS upwards of $40 when you add up the cost of the fill station, banks, electricity, annual maintenance, taxes, and overhead. And that class you paid $90 for may have cost the LDS upwards of $250 per student when you add up the cost of classroom space, materials, equipment, staff, pool, gear, insurance, and transport.


... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I have got to wonder, when is the last time anybody saw a class for $90.00?? and if it was Did you stop and look at the mark up on the Materials.. I just paid 35.00 for a DVD for a class that was worth about $2.99 nevermind the 30 page book that cost $49.00 plus the cost of the "Class" of $129.00. Nevermind The "Air Fill" he charged me for to go and finish my Cert in open water... The class was in the back of the LDS ( No Overhead there) There were many intruptions with people stoping in to say hi to the instructor, people going into the back store room or just walking through,because the class was till open... I am not buying the "Overhead thing".. These LDS will stuff you in a closet for a class as long as it does not cut into their profit...

 

[captain]

... and if you think scuba gear is expensive, wait'll you gotta maintain a compressor ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I got fed up with LDS's many years ago I have been having my own compressor for over 30 years. In that period of time I probably haven't spent over $1000 on maintenance. My main expense is gasoline to run it.

 

[friscuba]

I do not pay an extreme ammout for all of my groceries because that is is only place I can buy eggs...

Actually, maybe you do, at least for some items.

Groceries are generally very low margin business, but I'm sure they have their 100% or higher markup items too. Why do you think groceries add delis and bakeries... added margin.

People need to take time to distinguish the difference between the various businesses they are comparing to the scuba retailers. Groceries- Everybody's gotta eat, so there are 300 million customers in this country who put something purchased from a grocery into their bodies virtually every day.

If the dive industry had 300 million daily customers in this country, it'd probably be a high volume/low margein industry too. We're talking a specialty market, with relatively few people in the market.

I find it funny that people accuse dive shops of gouging them, yet how many of those individuals are wearing $50 and up shoes that cost a few bucks a pair to make. Go to almost any other retailer and look at their markups. My guess is that most of those who complain about their LDS based on price only (complaining about rudeness is reasonable) are probably paying huge margins on all sorts of things without even blinking.

Take a trip downtown or to the mall, if you are able to find out the markup at most retail shops you'll see it tends to run anywhere from 100%-500%. Most of the furniture guys I knew were running a 300-400% markup (with the occasional half price sale and still ended up doubling their money), gift stores 300-500% clothing stores 300-500%. You can go online and find bargains in almost ANY industry.

Retailers, especially the smaller guys, generally have a much higer cost of doing business than online or catalog businesses. There are a few notable exceptions of retailers who are also successful onlione retailers and can generate enough volume to get a better price for themselves on the front end, but they are the exceptions, and it probably didn't happen for themselves overnight.

later,

Steve