Question Near incident. What should I have done?

[dmaziuk]

... it is just not accurate to say every diver should be able to complete each dive without any assistance.

I can't help wondering if that means what you think it means.

 

[rick00001967]

These are trust-me dives and I simply won't do them. I opt to get the training and experience needed for each dive before I splash. There's an unsafe mindset that thinks it's "OK" to let someone else be responsible. I don't have that. I won't allow myself to do a dive that I can't complete on my own. However, there are some vast spaces that have unique requirements such as Bonne Terre Mines in Missouri. I'll give that a pass, but you can be sure that while they require a guide, I keep track of where I'm at and would have no issues swimming back to the exit on my own. My safety and continuing to live are my number one job.

i certainly understand your point. and everyone should agree each diver should strive to be as independent as possible.
the cenotes in mexico come to mind. almost no diver who dives there for the first time is capable or allowed to dive on their own. and for good reason. the training required to do these dives on their own is far too extensive and costly. most are average ow divers.
but i 100% agree it would be nice if each diver was capable of turning the dive and exiting if they needed to.
where i live may also be an interesting example. most visitors to our area have never dived here. they would not have the first clue where to go. many may never have even been in cold water with low viz. it would be crazy for them to attempt doing some of the dives avail without some local assistance in the water with them.
a "trust me dive" to me is where a diver has zero clue of what is needed to plan and execute the dive and blindly follows someone's direction without question or input. i think we can certainly agree that this should not happen, but it does.

 

[rick00001967]

not following. can you elaborate pls?

 

[Cthippo]

These are trust-me dives and I simply won't do them. I opt to get the training and experience needed for each dive before I splash. There's an unsafe mindset that thinks it's "OK" to let someone else be responsible. I don't have that. I won't allow myself to do a dive that I can't complete on my own. However, there are some vast spaces that have unique requirements such as Bonne Terre Mines in Missouri. I'll give that a pass, but you can be sure that while they require a guide, I keep track of where I'm at and would have no issues swimming back to the exit on my own. My safety and continuing to live are my number one job.

Isn't training just a "Trust me" dive with an instructor?

 

[inquis]

Isn't training just a "Trust me" dive with an instructor?

If that was your training, that is unfortunate. It has not been mine. The operative word in the statement made was "should". Obviously experiences vary, but I sincerely hope mine is the rule rather than the exception.

 

[The Chairman]

Isn't training just a "Trust me" dive with an instructor?

Not when I'm your instructor. You have to earn each step with your skill. We start in the pool. Your successful swim test earns you the right to move forward. We then move to the kiddie pool to learn mask clearing. Once you've got that down, you've earned the right to be on Scuba in the pool. If I ever put my student in a place that they can't complete the dive WITHOUT me, then I have failed, including the pool. You have to prove to me that you have buoyancy control before I let you go into the ocean. The environment might change, but my students have demonstrated the necessary skills before they get to OW.

I've seen too many students with actual fear in their eyes. No, not mine. It's my opinion that their instructors have failed them. I've seen too many new divers struggling with their buoyancy with that "I'm gonna die!" look in their eyes. Yes, their instructors have failed them. These people won't continue to dive because it has ceased to be fun. No, it doesn't have to be that way.

 

[fluff_astrid]

I know I'm late here, but I want to offer a similar experience this past week from the Red Sea as well (BDE route).

I was buddied up with another diver who was a bit heavy on air but generally good at conserving it during 3 easy check dives, and he added a 15L tank. On the second day we were doing Elphinstone and they changed the group we were in to one with a different guide than we had for the check dives. We were told the plan for Elphinstone was to follow the guide to 30m on a drift from north to south, look for hammerheads, and then rise up explore the southern plateau. He would check our air at intervals so we could plan to surface as a group with him deploying his DSMB and us doing the whole two-by-two zodiac pickup while looking out for white tips.

At the start of the dive, the guide takes off into the blue with his camera and we're all struggling to keep up. We're down at 30m for way too long IMO. My buddy lets me know when he's at half tank and so we attempt multiple times to signal the guide (sounds, waves, trying to catch up to grab his fins, whatever), as we were told to let him know when at half tank so he can plan the gradual ascent. The guide didn't turn around a single time during this dive. So my buddy and I start shallowing up. But within 5 mins my buddy signals he's at 60 bar, we're at 20m. Ok, clearly we need to start a safety stop fairly soon. I try again to signal the guide; I have thrown out the idea of trying to catch up with him because I don't need my buddy to burn more air during the swim, luckily someone else in the group hears my banging and gets the guide's attention. I point to my buddy and signal 60 bar. The guide signals that we (just my buddy and I) should do a safety stop. The briefing said to deploy a DSMB for a safety stop so I start to get mine ready and I deploy it while the guide continues to drift with the rest of the group. I see the zodiac come around so we hang and do our 3 mins but then suddenly two others from the group decide to join my DSMB for the safety stop. I point to my buddy that he should go up on the zodiac as he's low on air, I'll hang with my DSMB so the others can complete their stop. Instead, everyone except me tries to surface at once and they all surface swim for the zodiac instead of surfacing underneath it one by one. Suddenly, the guide is next to me admonishing *me* for their behavior, and once we all get back onboard he yells at me for deploying my DoSMB, tells me we should have waited for him and that we can "always buddy breathe, better to follow the guide."

I also like you spent a few days ruminating on how I could have done it better. But sometimes we have to make judgment calls when we're left to our own devices by guides more interested in photos/whatever instead of being more attentive. I don't mind guides who have a plan and dive it, and I don't mind unguided diving either, but I do bloody mind guides who don't dive the plan (including being attentive to their group) and then blame the group for having to make decisions on the fly.

 

[Cthippo]

I know I'm late here, but I want to offer a similar experience this past week from the Red Sea as well (BDE route).

I was buddied up with another diver who was a bit heavy on air but generally good at conserving it during 3 easy check dives, and he added a 15L tank. On the second day we were doing Elphinstone and they changed the group we were in to one with a different guide than we had for the check dives. We were told the plan for Elphinstone was to follow the guide to 30m on a drift from north to south, look for hammerheads, and then rise up explore the southern plateau. He would check our air at intervals so we could plan to surface as a group with him deploying his DSMB and us doing the whole two-by-two zodiac pickup while looking out for white tips.

At the start of the dive, the guide takes off into the blue with his camera and we're all struggling to keep up. We're down at 30m for way too long IMO. My buddy lets me know when he's at half tank and so we attempt multiple times to signal the guide (sounds, waves, trying to catch up to grab his fins, whatever), as we were told to let him know when at half tank so he can plan the gradual ascent. The guide didn't turn around a single time during this dive. So my buddy and I start shallowing up. But within 5 mins my buddy signals he's at 60 bar, we're at 20m. Ok, clearly we need to start a safety stop fairly soon. I try again to signal the guide; I have thrown out the idea of trying to catch up with him because I don't need my buddy to burn more air during the swim, luckily someone else in the group hears my banging and gets the guide's attention. I point to my buddy and signal 60 bar. The guide signals that we (just my buddy and I) should do a safety stop. The briefing said to deploy a DSMB for a safety stop so I start to get mine ready and I deploy it while the guide continues to drift with the rest of the group. I see the zodiac come around so we hang and do our 3 mins but then suddenly two others from the group decide to join my DSMB for the safety stop. I point to my buddy that he should go up on the zodiac as he's low on air, I'll hang with my DSMB so the others can complete their stop. Instead, everyone except me tries to surface at once and they all surface swim for the zodiac instead of surfacing underneath it one by one. Suddenly, the guide is next to me admonishing *me* for their behavior, and once we all get back onboard he yells at me for deploying my DoSMB, tells me we should have waited for him and that we can "always buddy breathe, better to follow the guide."

I also like you spent a few days ruminating on how I could have done it better. But sometimes we have to make judgment calls when we're left to our own devices by guides more interested in photos/whatever instead of being more attentive. I don't mind guides who have a plan and dive it, and I don't mind unguided diving either, but I do bloody mind guides who don't dive the plan (including being attentive to their group) and then blame the group for having to make decisions on the fly.

Yeah, F that guide. You are responsible for your safety and you took that responsibility seriously and did what needed to be done to prevent an OOA emergency.

 

[rongoodman]

Brothers, Daedalus, & Elphinstone

 

[fluff_astrid]

Hi, given your diving issues you have listed in your thread, here

Getting more comfortable with current diving and better at negative descents

Recently did some diving at BDE, where I found myself once again struggling with currents and zodiac drops despite over 200 dives, including some intense ones at Raja Ampat. I still to this day struggle to enjoy a drift or current dive, and I want to be able to handle them better and stop being...

scubaboard.com

How at 0400hrs are you able to type an unaffected account here

Could you please tell me what the BDE you refer to is thank you.

In this particular dive I had only a little struggle getting down but once there the current was fairy minimal on this particular dive.

Not all dives from RIBs were a struggle nor are all dives with currents a struggle; it's just a general comment about how they can stress me out or provide difficulties. I am still a diver that can complete dives just fine. BDE is just a particular kind of route. In this case I suppose an actual incident sharpened my focus and I was able to respond appropriately.

Not sure what you're implying by "an unaffected account at 0400 hrs". Liveaboards are made up of dozens of dives and some will be different than the others. I never once said that I couldn't do the dives, just that I find negative entries and heavy current more stressful/difficult than enjoyable.