What to do when an instructor is out of line?

[redacted]

After finally deducing which shop....

Release the hounds - we have fresh trail.

Stunts like this will cost shops business if it is not handled well. If it is handled well, it could even enhance their business; or they can at least come through it unscathed.

It is just a matter of time before he is treed.

 

[Hotpuppy]

Release the hounds - we have fresh trail.

Stunts like this will cost shops business if it is not handled well. If it is handled well, it could even enhance their business; or they can at least come through it unscathed.

It is just a matter of time before he is treed.

Yea, I pointed out to the LDS Owner that I'm a pretty profitable customer and I wasn't expecting a roman crucifix as part of the solution. My root issue was an instructor lost it. My secondary issue that took over was that the Course Director didn't acknowledge this with me and address it. While the LDS Owner did apologize he went on to fluff the Instructor and not condemn the behavior or assure me that it was simply an anomoly. Had he debriefed the dive (which hasn't really happened) and addressed what it was the caused this instructor to lose it (I really am curious, regardless of how stupid the answer might be) and covered what could have been done differently..... I'd still be a customer.

I don't expect perfection from my instructors, only the tireless pursuit of it. We're all human and we all make bad calls from time to time. In this case I think the bad call was particularly out of line and needs some remediation. However, the bad call appears to be supported by the Course Director and the Shop.

One of the interesting challenges that comes up is when a shop is so successful that it can choose to only use instructors it has trained. I think it creates a weak instructional program that becomes in effect, top-heavy or inbred. Diversity and controlled conflict of opinion drives improvements to the cost structure and quality of the quality of the product. In a business that relies heavily on a small local community you simply can't afford to burn-out customers.

In this case they will lose me. A close friend of mine who took Discover Scuba was horrified when he heard about this. Doubt he'll go back there. That's a damned shame. That friend has more disposable income than I do and I was trying to recruit him as my buddy because he was interested in diving, we get along well, and he can afford to go on trips regularly. I have another dozen or so friends who used to dive, still dive, or want to dive. I forget who said it first.... but a happy customer tells one or two people. An unhappy customer tells 10 people. A customer who believes you jeopardized their safety and acted like a lunatic tells everyone they know.

 

[Hotpuppy]

Release the hounds - we have fresh trail.

Stunts like this will cost shops business if it is not handled well. If it is handled well, it could even enhance their business; or they can at least come through it unscathed.

It is just a matter of time before he is treed.

I would appreciate it if those of you who do figure this out honor my request not to name the shop or instructor in this thread. If they want to participate they will choose to do so. I have encouraged the shop and instructor to participate. However, should they choose not to do so, that is ultimately their choice.

While this may seem like I'm covering for them, I'm not. Every training participant should evaluate their instructor and walk if you think they are hot-headed, in a huge hurry, or not keeping your best interests in mind. An instructor who has 2 days allocated for a class and wants to rush through it in one evening is your first warning sign.

In case you aren't aware, naming names limits what you can say without legal repurcussions. By keeping the name out of it and being vague enough that the discussion doesn't reveal the shop it allows us to be more blunt, express our personal opinions, and not do real or perceived damage to the LDS. Trust me when I say that no business can do this to it's customers and stay in business.

Diving is a small community and you will drive away customers by supporting or engaging in unprofessional behavior.

 

[halocline]

In case you aren't aware, naming names limits what you can say without legal repurcussions. By keeping the name out of it and being vague enough that the discussion doesn't reveal the shop it allows us to be more blunt, express our personal opinions, and not do real or perceived damage to the LDS. Trust me when I say that no business can do this to it's customers and stay in business.

Diving is a small community and you will drive away customers by supporting or engaging in unprofessional behavior.

In all honesty the response that the dive shop owner wrote you seemed fairly appropriate and professional to me. He apologized for your unpleasant experience and asked you what you wanted. I don't believe it was appropriate for you to post it here without the permission of the person who wrote it.

I am getting the distinct feeling that there is another side to this story. If the instructor has a proven track record of professional and positive interactions with students, it seems very unlikely to me that he would treat any student in the manner you described.

There's a lot of piling on based on one side of the story in this thread.

 

[archer fish]

STUDENTS are the Instructor's responsibility. An instructor should see to it that all his students are comfortable during the dive with SAFETY as a primary concern. This is recreational diving and dives should therefore be fun, enjoyable, and safe. There is no reason to take unnecessary risk. As an instructor, especially on limited visibility diving, I make sure students are within reach, should be watching each other, after all, these are moments we can share. RESPECT is something we have to earn, we can have this if we also respect our students. Students want to learn from their instructors and can not learn all the skills in 25 dives. It is therefore important for an instructor to know the skills level of his students to be able to make a sound judgment when planning a dive. PATIENCE is a virtue an instructor should have, if you don't have it, teaching is not for you.
Remember, PADI says, "DIVING IS FUN"
The actions of one member should not "speak" for a worldwide organization that is well organized and professional.

 

[Hotpuppy]

In all honesty the response that the dive shop owner wrote you seemed fairly appropriate and professional to me. He apologized for your unpleasant experience and asked you what you wanted. I don't believe it was appropriate for you to post it here without the permission of the person who wrote it.

I thought it was professional, although lacking any condemnation of the behavior. That's why I shared it. I took care to make sure it didn't include any information that identified the shop, owner, or individuals involved with the exception of myself.

I think not posting it would cast this in a worse light then posting it with the appropriate information redacted. As for piling on that you assert..... I think I've been pretty good about not doing that. As others have pointed out there were alot of other things going on that weren't right. I should have probably called them out, but I trusted the instructor and didn't want to call a foul in front of other divers who were less experienced. I evaluated the situation and determined that I could deal with the plan and I always have the option of aborting a dive should I become uncomfortable, feel unsafe, or run low on air. Ideally, my buddy and instructor are paying attention and checking "OK" often enough that they notice this, but under no circumstances will I allow someone else's neglect to override my personal safety. I'm not even remotely claiming to be perfect.... there is alot I could have done differently here. Unfortunately, the instructor losing it overtook the learning that should have happened on apparently more than one occassion. That's a shame. I was there to learn and I was putting 100% of my attention and effort into it. The place to make mistakes is under the watchful eye of a dedicated instructor.

 

[Herk_Man]

Only if you're holding on to it, otherwise it's a "visual reference"



PS - I saw several divers this weekend using the bottom as a "physical buoyancy reference"

:cool2:

If he used the word "tactile" instead, would this ridiculous argument go away?

 

[TSandM]

Hotpuppy, having just finished my DM class, I think it may actually turn out good for you in the long run that you're backing out of this one at this time.

If you are interested in classes to polish your personal diving skills, consider an Intro to Tech, Fundamentals, or Essentials class. Those are classes which are designed to address diving skill, rather than teaching, guiding or instructor support abilities.

 

[B Lo]

...That sort of behavior is rarely an isolated occurrence, and so if the instructor is that kind of person, he almost certainly would have treated other students this way, there would have been many previous complaints, and the guy's career as a scuba instructor would be over.

Someone who makes a habit of demeaning others has to start somewhere. For all we know, this could well be the instructor's first class. Surprising though it may be, there are some truly terrible and worthless people in this world... and in the dive industry.

 

[B Lo]

... In case you aren't aware, naming names limits what you can say without legal repurcussions. By keeping the name out of it and being vague enough that the discussion doesn't reveal the shop it allows us to be more blunt, express our personal opinions, and not do real or perceived damage to the LDS. Trust me when I say that no business can do this to it's customers and stay in business.

Disclaimer: I am not licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. As someone who graduated from a top 100 law school (at least at the time I entered, LOL), I was under the profound impression that truth is an absolute defense to defamation in all instances. I was under the impression that the damaging nature of the comments is irrelevant if you don't meet all of the statutory elements for the cause of action suit is brought under (e.g., libel - written defamation).

Even Wikipedia has the basics of defamation down pretty well IMO. "Under United States law, libel generally requires five key elements. The plaintiff must prove that the information was published, the plaintiff was directly or indirectly identified, the remarks were defamatory towards the plaintiff's reputation, the published information is false, and that the defendant is at fault." (emphasis added)

Also, I haven't researched the issue in the least, but if memory serves me correctly, it's much harder to prove defamation of an entity (e.g., LDS) than an individual. Perhaps tortious interferance would be a fallback claim for them. All the same, acting in good faith by exerting your first amendment rights while stating something which is true will rarely, if ever, support such a claim. Truth is really the big element here too. That said, I am not licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction and haven't researched the matter recently, so take the above as my personal (not legal) opinion.