What to do when an instructor is out of line?

[iztok]

I've been to 110+ feet in blue waters at Kona that looked and felt like I was at 20 feet... and I've been at 20 feet in a quarry with less than a foot of vis, temps around 40 degrees... and the 20 foot dive was one HECK of a lot harder and more stressful than the 110+ one. Now, add another 80 feet to that low vis, low light situation... and a single dive in clear water doesn't mean ANYTHING training wise.

But isn't it fun when all the hard work and practice in low viz and low temp at the quarry ... working on one's trim, buoyancy control, deploying SMB, navigation etc... pays off on the vacation to warm water with high viz? When you get 40 ft visibility in 55F water at Catalina Island and you think you are in paradise surrounded with all the marvelous marine life. Gets you thinking that "poor schmuck" that got all his diving in 80+F / 80+ viz waters is missing so much diving SoCal Kelp beds or NC Graveyard of the Atlantic!

 

[divin'dog]

... So what I'd like to do now is figure out how to best unwind the relationship we have.

The easy stuff:
- Digital Underwater Photography class - paid for, never scheduled - refund?
- Flower Gardens Trip w/ Nitrox - Paid for, cancelled twice due to weather - Refund?
- Workbook and Video for Deep Specialty - Paid for, not instock, not received - Refund?

The mildly difficult stuff
- I have a half completed DAN DEMP course. We need to figure out how to resolve this. We started the course weeks ago.
- I am currently enrolled in DM. The trust necessary for this class is shattered, gone, never to be seen again. While I respect <another instructor> as a talented and trustworthy instructor..... I will be entirely too critical of other instructors for me to work closely with them. It would be a bad idea for me to continue. It's not reasonable to expect you to take back course materials. You tell me what you think is fair for the course fee portion. I've done one classroom session.

The hard stuff:
- Deep Specialty. This was a disaster. I'm out the cost of a hotel, travel, and other expenses associated with it. I was publicly humiliated and verbally assaulted. At the very least I think you should refund the course fee and we'll call it even. You tell me what you think is fair?
- Cozumel Trip. Again, the shop has lost my trust. The problem appears to be much deeper rooted then I initially thought. I think this would simply be a bad idea. You tell me what you think is reasonable. At the very least I should not be paying for the food/alcohol portion <I don't drink which they know>. I think you can salvage the airfare to someone else.... but we need to work out an amicable solution to the rest of it. I don't plan to go. I won't dive with people I don't trust... period. And yes, my trust is gone.
- <shop> dive club: It's not likely that I would be welcome in the shop after we are done. No offense taken. However, I don't like to pay for things I can't use. You tell me what you think is fair here as well.

You should demand full refund on all the "easy" stuff. For "mildly difficult", demand most, if not all of your payment. You could just keep the course materials and then demand the balance as refund. As for the "hard stuff", demand the full payment of Deep Specialty course that was totally a waste of your time. You will have to eat the hotel and travel, but I think you've learned more in this one class than all the other classes combined, so maybe not a total loss in that perspective... The trip to Cozumel should be easy to find a replacement for yourself and the shop could probably find someone easily. To make a nice clean separation, get back the full deposit you have given them.

The shop is asking you what you want. You need to spell it out or they will give you what they think is fair and that usually goes in their favor. I think they want you gone as quietly and quickly as possible as you want to leave them, which is why they asked you in the first place. Put it all in writing and tell them what you want! Remember to be fair to yourself first!

Good luck in pursuing more experience and finding a good dive shop. 25 dives is not a lot, you know that now. You will eventually hook up with like-minded divers and meet the kind of divers you want to be with to learn from and dive with for fun. And they'll probably lead you to the kind of shop you will like. Funny how that happens.

There's a lot of good advice in this thread. My advice is to enjoy the skills you have now. You will eventually get to where you want to go. Enjoy the journey. Diving is supposed to be fun.

dd

 

[Hotpuppy]

I think they want you gone as quietly and quickly as possible as you want to leave them,

I think it's mutual at this point.... while I know some would scream and demand everything... I want to be reasonable and I find that Karma is a strange banker, but she rewards you when you do the right thing.

If I were on the other side of this, losing a profitable customer due to employee/contractor misbheavior (and I've been there) I'd want to minimize my loss, cover my hard costs, and part nicely.

I don't expect the shop to eat everything. I want to give them an opportunity to tell me what they think is fair. That is reasonable. If I disagree we can go from there.

At the end of the day, my safety is far more important than $1000 to $2000 which is the maximum damage if they refunded nothing. Even if they got $2k out of me it will cost them FAR FAR more in terms of losing me as a customer. Customer acquisition is one of the single biggest expenses for a small business. customers are incredibly expensive to bring in. Profitable customers who have money to spend and the desire to play are even harder to find. I, by myself, won't impact their bottom line. But if they treated me this way there will be others will nearly identical experiences. These sorts of things don't happen in isolation when there is support from the top.

This is the type of thing that you just can't outrun. You can't ditch customer after customer and make money. Customer service is really, emphatically caring about your customers and going after anyone who doesn't.

I tallied up my purchases at this shop for the year so far.... $6130.43. Now, I'll admit I don't own a dive shop. But I'm also willing to bet you don't find many customers who will spend an average of $1500/mo with you. Do you really want to screw that up? haha..... Bet you I won't have much trouble finding another shop that wants that business and respects me as a customer. On a standard 2 keystone (200%) markup they probably had a gross margin of around $4000 this year from me. In my business I bend over backwards not to piss off those kinds of customers... and any employee who doesn't drink *that* kool-aid is out of here like a bad fart in a fast covertible!

Btw, those purchases do not include a BCD, Reg, Fins, Mask, Wetsuits (3mm and 5mm), weights, dive gear bag, etc. I opted for a used BCD and reg. I had them serviced which is included in those numbers. I bought my fins and mask where I did my OW training which is not included in those numbers. I bought my wetsuits, dive gear bag and some minor accessories from LeisurePro and have to say they get customer service and were pretty nice to work with. I bought the weights on ebay for $2/lb. They look identical to the dive shop weights at $4/lb. I drank the kool-aid for a while, and frankly it was sort of expensive kool-aid and didn't seem to get me anywhere at the end of the day.

Almost forgot.... the numbers above don't include some cash purchases ($200?) and don't include my Camera, Strobe, Pelican Case, or Tray. I bought the tray direct from someone on here in the PNW who makes awesome camera gear. I bought the Canon G9 and Canon Case from someone on ebay who used them in a pool. I bought the pelican case on Ebay as well. Then there was the strobe from Ebay/Estate sale... $70 for a nice Sea & Sea strobe.... YS120. And a fleet of rechargeable batteries (Eneloops) and a quick charger fo rthem. That's easily another $1000 into this hobby. I think the LDS was made I didn't buy a Sealife... which is cute, but I actually can use a camera so I'd have wound Sealife's mousetrap too tight by the time I got it wet.

On the other hand, I'm spending enough to actually go diving where the water is warm and clear. Hmm.... maybe I should be spending more money with IflySWA.com where dive bags fly free (when disguised as regular luggage).

 

[Hotpuppy]

My only regret so far with scuba (other than the obvious instructor choice error) is not having done it years ago. Some of my friends have commented that it has changed me for the better and helped me to relax.

 

[gcbryan]

Hotpuppy, sorry to hear about your experience and I certainly wouldn't have reacted as well as you upon being called a "f*ing idiot" and you're right that's a lot different than someone saying "What the F happened".

I also think your approach with the shop is the professional way to cut your losses and exit from the shop.

I would encourage you to hang on to your wallet and just pay for one trip at a time. I would also advise you to consider that becoming a competent diver is not related to the number of courses that you take.

You really need to join a club or find dive buddies in some other way and just dive like crazy since you do seem to have a passion for it.

In my opinion you just need to redirect that passion away from taking classes and toward acquiring experience through diving with a frequent dive buddy and without the expectation of a DM or instructor being around at all.

It sounds like almost all of your dives to date have been in a class. Diving is not about the classes you take or the cards you collect. Becoming a DM is not the right approach for anything other than helping out with classes.

I'd say if you really have a passion for helping out with classes (the only reason for a DM) then do it after several hundred dives when you actually know how to dive and when you are perhaps getting a little bored and simply want to do it for a new challenge.

To do so shortly after being certified youself is just the wrong approach. The only reason it happens is that shop owner/instructors tell their new OW students that they are "DM material" and should consider that training. It's not an honor to be told this. It's a sales pitch.

Getting away from this shop will be the best thing (scuba related) that you've ever done. I'm sure you will have an association with another shop but IMO you should step away from shops to a degree.

Join a dive club not associated with a shop and make new dive buddies who aren't associated with a shop. No one gains from too close an association with a dive shop as far as being a good diver is concerned. I say that while having had good associations with dive shops myself but never as the primary source of dive knowledge or dive buddies. I don't get my knowledge of cars (when I need a new one) from auto dealerships either (for the same reason).

Good luck and be sure to post some dive reports after some of your future dives.

 

[Kingpatzer]

He's willing to discuss what refunds you are interested in obtaining, so spell out what you want and go from there.

Get refunds for all of the courses that have not started yet, pro-rated refunds for any courses you've partially attended, cut your losses and run.

Whatever does happen (from the store or from PADI) you won't get much in the way of information. It will be behind the scenes and you won't see the result. Any expectation that you would is misplaced.

 

[jmasin]

Agree with gcbryan alot!

Join a club, find another LDS. If you want to buy more / take more classes, feel out the next shop a bit. It does sound like you went "all-in" with these guys, and since it didn't work out, it's now a mess. Sometimes it doesn't work out, minor personality clashes, you like another shop better etc. It happens. Feel 'em out little by little... take ONE class. Sign up for ONE trip.

You sound eager to get going, which is AWESEOME, but take your time and log some dives!

This is not a comment on the OP, but with my dive count now in the 60's, I qualify for DM (or MD) or whatever... If I want to pay the $xxx for the cards, I can get it... but frankly I don't feel qualified to lead dives and help with classes yet. I'm quite comfy, and feeling good about my diving, but keeping track of me and my buddy is good for now.

I laugh that the agencies even allow these certs with so few dives. To me it seems more like a $$-grab than true education/qualification. Just venting an opinion there.

Cheers!

 

[Wookie]

After finally deducing which shop Hotpuppy is speaking about, I've got to think that this incident is a bit of an anomaly. This shop generally gets very good reviews of their staff and facilities, most of their customers are repeaters, and, although I personally have had conflict with the owner, it was personality, not philosophy. I see this as a case of "he said-he said", everyone was a little bit wrong, and the shop owner chose to keep any upgrading of the instructor private, within the management of the shop, as it should be.

Hotpuppy, I think you are doing the right thing by severing ties with the shop, but I wouldn't burn any more bridges at this time. Make the best agreement with the shop owner that you can live with, and part on a handshake rather than a f*** you. You never know, your wife/girlfriend (or maybe both) might someday work there. Stranger things have happened. Go hang out with the nice folks at CHUM (whom I am proud to count myself as a member) or HUC for a while, and listen to them regale you with stories of Houston LDS's. You don't need to pick just one, there are many, and they all have strengths and weaknesses. Most of all, keep diving, and good luck.

 

[Kingpatzer]

I laugh that the agencies even allow these certs with so few dives. To me it seems more like a $$-grab than true education/qualification. Just venting an opinion there.

Cheers!

The problem is that for an agency of any real size, there needs to be objective standards for when people can start these programs. And in reality, not all dives are equal. Someone with 500 dives, all of them during only perfect weather on Bonaire diving down to 40' in pristine blue warm water is not going to have near the experience as someone with 80 dives all of them in high current, cold water with big swells on the surface.

The numbers are just a guide as to when people can be allowed to start. The standards call for the prospective student to be evaluated. Good shops and good instructors take the standards to heart and evaluate the student before allowing them to start the course. That's one of the ways to know if you should be taking an advanced class from a store. If they let you sign up and start class without evaluating your skills then they care more about dollars than divers.

 

[Hotpuppy]

Hotpuppy, I think you are doing the right thing by severing ties with the shop, but I wouldn't burn any more bridges at this time. Make the best agreement with the shop owner that you can live with, and part on a handshake rather than a f*** you. You never know, your wife/girlfriend (or maybe both) might someday work there. Stranger things have happened.

I never bring matches to an argument...... I've taken the suggestions here to heart and sent a revised email requesting specific things. I think I'm being very reasonable. I've also pointed out that I was a pretty profitable customer and reiterated that I'm leaving because I don't feel that the after incident was right. I don't mind that the shop owner stayed professional. What bothers me is that the shop owner chose to fluff the instructor instead of condemning what happened and assuring me I'd not have that problem.

As for the girlfriend/wife..... yea that would be pretty strange. I won't go into details but let's just say that ain't gonna happen..... no how no way. Let's just say that I when I come dive your boat I'm going to really enjoy visiting Key West.