What to do when an instructor is out of line?

[ppo2_diver]

I think it's been established that the instructor involved has some experience (MSDT) and has had a positive experience with students before.

I wouldn't assume that. I know people who were MSDT within four weeks after completing their IDC/IE. Within six months became a "Master" Instructor. Quantity of certs does not equal quality.

Regardless, no instructor should call a student names and demean them. People are paying for classes and even if they do make mistakes, they deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. I would contact PADI's QA department about it, but wouldn't hold my breath on them doing anything substantial.

 

[Hotpuppy]

Thinking about this, it's possible that the instructor was being more critical of the OP because he was considering him as a DMT, not as a specialty student. I'm not condoning that at all. I just know that there are instructors that are much harsher with DMTs (viewing them as future pros) than they are with OW and purely recreational students. Again, I do not condone this type of behavior at all; in fact, I find it to be particularly counter productive.

I welcome being held to a higher standard..... I appreciate an instructor who will pick apart my logic and actions and help me see a better way. That's not quite the same as publicly executing me. It's not the same as saying "give me 10 minutes to cool off and we can talk later, I'm pissed off right now."


I received an update that the shop is working on my request. So at this point I believe that they are going to do the right thing.

I've reiterated to them that this isn't what I wanted.... I actually interviewed this shop prior to doing business with them. I went in and sat down and talked about what I expected, what I didn't expect, and where my standards were as a customer. I believed we had a match and prior to yesterday I would have defended them.

Moving forward I'm not going to bash them. I'll discourage those I care about from training with certain individuals there. If they insist I'll encourage them to apply closer standards and to remember that any diver can thumb any dive at any time with no real consequences. I didn't get into this sport to manage someone's business. I'm in it to have fun, be safe, and enjoy life.

There are instructors there that I trust implicitly based on my personal experiences and observations. They are dedicated people who give more than a damn, who add to the material, make sure you master it, and are model instructors. There are also people there who's big concern is making a buck.

Anyhow, it's a tough call and I have to be convinced that this sort of unglueing isn't condoned or tolerated no matter how isolated it is. Maybe my standard is unreasonable... but it's the standard that applies in other activities where a mistake can have devastating consequences.

One of my favorite mottos: "Safety takes a second; Accidents are instant."

 

[diver 85]

Wow, the instructor is wrong on so many levels. Sounds like he was embarrassed and humiliated that he lost track of a student and then deflected it onto you by getting mad. It's a rather common human reaction - catch someone in a lie or a mistake and they often respond by getting mad at you.

You could bypass the shop and go directly to PADI with your concerns.

Aside from that, and nothing to do with your decision, but I would suggest putting off the DM course for awhile. IMHO you should have a lot more diving experience and be much more comfortable before beginning this course. You shouldn't take the course in order to learn how to dive like a DM. You should learn how to dive like a DM first then take the course to learn how to think like a DM.

Maybe(just maybe?) the instructor was talking to himself: "Your a F****ng Idiot, I'm not going down with you again, get out of the water". ---lol, some people do like to critique themselves, in public no less....

To the OP, IMO you did the correct thing...

 

[halocline]

I wouldn't assume that. I know people who were MSDT within four weeks after completing their IDC/IE. Within six months became a "Master" Instructor. Quantity of certs does not equal quality.

Regardless, no instructor should call a student names and demean them. People are paying for classes and even if they do make mistakes, they deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. I would contact PADI's QA department about it, but wouldn't hold my breath on them doing anything substantial.

I'm not assuming anything. I posted the bit about the MSDT because someone else posted that this might have been the instructor's first class. It clearly was not.

I'm in 100% agreement that no instructor should call students names, swear at them, or demean them. I don't think you'll find many, if any, instructors in any discipline that would disagree. I bet if you asked the instructor being discussed he'd agree. It just seems very unusual to me that an established scuba instructor would act in the way described. I'm not saying it's not possible, but I've certainly never seen behavior like that from a recreational scuba instructor. I have, OTOH, seen encounters where the instructor was maybe somewhat condescending in tone, maybe a bit flippant, and combined with a student's natural apprehension in new diving situations and concern about being criticized in front of peers, had a very strong negative reaction to the instructor. That does not justify the behavior or demeanor of the instructor, but it does mean that the perception of the student might not be anything like what others might perceive.

My main point in this thread is that since not a single one of us was there as a witness, it's probably not fair to call the instructor the kind of names he's being blasted for calling the student.

 

[halocline]

There are instructors there that I trust implicitly based on my personal experiences and observations. They are dedicated people who give more than a damn, who add to the material, make sure you master it, and are model instructors. There are also people there who's big concern is making a buck.

Anyhow, it's a tough call and I have to be convinced that this sort of unglueing isn't condoned or tolerated no matter how isolated it is. Maybe my standard is unreasonable... but it's the standard that applies in other activities where a mistake can have devastating consequences.

Your standard is not at all unreasonable. I'm sure you'll find some good instruction; there are lots of good people out there.

BTW, any scuba instructor who's big concern is making money is REALLY barking up the wrong tree.

 

[Scott]

I wouldn't assume that. I know people who were MSDT within four weeks after completing their IDC/IE. Within six months became a "Master" Instructor. Quantity of certs does not equal quality.

Regardless, no instructor should call a student names and demean them. People are paying for classes and even if they do make mistakes, they deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. I would contact PADI's QA department about it, but wouldn't hold my breath on them doing anything substantial.

I don't think so. One of the prerequisites requires you to be an Instructor for two years.

 

[Hotpuppy]

I'm not assuming anything. I posted the bit about the MSDT because someone else posted that this might have been the instructor's first class. It clearly was not.

No the instructor should have been very highly qualified by looking at his "resume" on the dive store website. Unfortunately, I've committed to not naming him publicly.... so it's almost impossible to start listing his qualifications and honor that committment. I'll just leave it at this guy has enough instructor certs that he should be past coming unglued over anything.

 

[Thalassamania]

In looking around at some of the entities that might have been involved in this, I ran into this description of one shop's MSDT; "A week after getting his Open Water certification he gained his Advanced Open Water status. The following month he became a Rescue Diver. Within his first year as a diver he completed his Divemaster certification and logged 100 dives."

This may well not even be the shop involved, but what kind of shop/course director/instructor sees this as a good thing for a professional scuba resume?

But you failed to post the best part, which followed:

Now as a Master Scuba Diver Training Instructor, he graduated first in his class and was placed in a position not only as an instructor, but also as the head of scuba class operations at XXXXX Dive Center in xxxxxx, Florida.
​

It was my understanding that to be a Master Scuba Diver Training Instructor you needed to hold 5 specialy instructor cards and have certified 25 divers. I guess I don't see how one could have, "graduated first in his class". The shop that has to take a new instructor and place them, "in a position not only as an instructor, but also as the head of scuba class operations" must be one hurtin' puppy.

 

[Hotpuppy]

Hey guys.... not to burst bubbles.... but the two Instructors who come up on google with that phrase aren't involved. I don't want to even accidentally tarnish someone's reputation.

As for the offender and his LDS.....They are both based in Houston.

Btw, I spoke to PADI QA today while making sure they had gotten my email. They hadn't, but when I described the incident they were pretty concerned. The CSR and QA people were extremely nice about the whole thing. I had to re-forward my email... which is wierd because I have Gmail and... well gmail just doesn't have delivery problems.

In hindsight what I should have done is kept my mouth shut and called the police to complain about assault. Austin PD would have come out and assault is a heck of alot more serious then anything PADI will do. For those that don't know assault is verbal, battery is physical. Both are crimes.

 

[joolz]

I"m confused as to why this thread is still going on.

You spent 2 hours with the CD. You've discussed the incident with the shop owner, DM and the other instructor. The shop acknowledged that something went awry and they're prepared to work out a refund if you tell them what you want. At this point, the only additional info that's being added is how much money the shop is going to lose because you're a big spender with affluent friends. You seem disappointed that they haven't announced the instructor's immediate termination, and instead have given you the standard response any employer would give regarding an employee.

Unfortunately, the only person who knows why .... isn't participating in the thread. Mattboy is right, there is another side of the story and unfortunately I haven't heard it.

Is this a surprise?? Even though many have acknowledged that we're only hearing one side of the story, the instructor's credentials are already being attacked and people have deemed him unfit to teach based on one version of one incident. If you're looking for mediation to resolve the issue, you should be asking the shop/CD to set it up privatelyrather than in a public forum in which most seem to have already established that the instructor was 110% at fault. Would you jump into a public forum to defend -- and identify -- yourself if you were this instructor? I definitely wouldn't.

When things go wrong on deep dives, stress levels escalate and things get said in the heat of the moment. And yes, one would hope that a professional can keep his temper in check when these things happen...but instructors are human. I've never yelled at a student, but I did see one student flip out on his fiancee when she aborted a deep dive without letting anyone know. Based solely on that one response to stress, however, I wouldn't extrapolate that he's an unfit husband.

If you're seeking an explanation or apology, you'll have to meet the instructor face to face. Hopefully both of you have had time to calm down and can talk through it like civilized adults. You aren't going to get any resolution just by posting here.