What solo cert do you have, has it ever been turned down?

What solo cert do you have, has it ever been turned down?

  • PADI Self-Reliant Diver, never turned down

    Votes: 34 21.5%
  • PADI Self-Reliant Diver, turned down

    Votes: 5 3.2%
  • SDI Solo Diver, never turned down

    Votes: 57 36.1%
  • SDI Solo Diver, turned down

    Votes: 7 4.4%
  • Other agency, designate in post, never turned down

    Votes: 5 3.2%
  • Other agency, designate in post, turned down

    Votes: 1 0.6%
  • Solo dive, not certified, never turned down

    Votes: 45 28.5%
  • Solo dive, not certified, turned down

    Votes: 9 5.7%

  • Total voters
    158

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2.) Whether a jury will be convinced of that after you die on a solo dive, and someone tries to sue claiming the dive center shouldn't have rented you tanks to solo dive when you weren't certified for it.

I wonder which concern is the main driver for dive center concerns over this issue? And since Curacao isn't the U.S., I wonder how law-suit friendly their society is?
...
This assumes a litigation society. Curaçao isn't.

If a diver rents tanks and doesn't return them because he's still on the bottom of the ocean with those rented tanks, you can even wonder who is going to reimburse the divecenter. For sure the divecenter is not responsible for whatever happened during the dive (unless the tank itself burst, causing lethal injury).

To blur this line even more: a divecenter fills the tanks that are owned by a solodiver. The diver does a one-way trip into the ocean. Imagine someone suing the divecenter claiming the center should not have filled tanks to solo dive.

That last situation is very common. Loads of divers bring their own equipment to remote locations, requiring only air fills. Did anyone ever sue a divecenter for supplying clean air fills to a diver that didn't come back afterwards?
 
A very good post. I will comment on some minor detail here.

So with a full cave cert you can do also technical wreck and mines.
Yes and no.

Some wrecks can be more dangerous places than some caves. There are razor sharp edges and spikes in wrecks that can tear your drysuit and let the icy waters in. We know how that ends. There could be all kinds of stuff floating around too - a major entanglement hazard - and it's not cave line. You cannot cut cable or wire unless you were insightfull enough to bring wire cutters with you. Older wrecks might be on the brink of collapsing and entrapping the unwary. A cave diving course cannot fully prepare one for penetration wreck dives. Further study is needed. It could be books, though. I'm not a tech wreck diver, but I did do some private study.

Mine diving also sounds so simple, but do you know the mining methods used and the type of rock and the dangers they pose? Mines, too, contain cables and wires and sharp edges. And rotten pillars. Don't get buried in a collapse. I know a mine that has acidic water so if you dive there a lot the chrome plating of your 1st stages is soon gone. Not a place to do mask removal drills. There's a need for specific knowledge on mines. You might not need a course if you read enough.
As already written earlier, there are useful diving courses like ow, nitrox, cave, trimix, etc.
Our CMAS one star course explained ppO2 and the maximum recommended values.

The PADI nitrox course did not bring any new info, unless the knowledge of oxygen cleanness for partial pressure fills counts as one. That could have been explained in one or two sentences though, so what's the reason for a nitrox class? Well, profitability! The instructor needs to make a living, which I believe is a fair demand. I do not teach for money, so this opinion is impartial.

If you only take PADI courses, then you'll need that nitrox class too.
[Edit: and dive centres / filling stations require a nitrox card if you want a nitrox fill]
sidemount, you can learn yourself,
And I did, and I also assembled my kit myself, and hours upon hours of GoPro footage and one serious incident later I had deep knowledge on the subject. Today there are nice courses available and I would recommend them.

Getting the cylinders properly trimmed requires some help from another knowledgeable sidemount diver. I've been in a situation where an experienced ocean diver had badly fitted sidemount gear. It was a disaster. We can skip the siltout stuff, that's not bad, we can dive by touch, and there is line, but the unconscious diver in the ceiling part was nasty. Fundies doesn't make you a sidemount diver, ok? Contingency planning is also critically different from backmount. I would recommend sidemount courses, the tech ones, not the fun ones.
And I solved this problems and discussions with an 'Everything diver instructor' card. :) :D This also means you can dive solo. :wink:
Yes. We all want this certification:

"AQUEOUS DIVER FIRST CLASS.
This diver is certified to dive in water and in all kinds of aqueous solutions, with the possibility of suspended matter, to any depth, in any temperature and visibility and current, during both day and night, alone or in groups, with his/her choice of equipment and/or suit or without either. No ceiling, hard of soft, nor marine life nor night life, shall limit his/her right to dive and all life sustaining breathing gasses are allowed, would the diver choose to bring expendable gasses. This certification gets automatically revoked in the case of a diving related death. This diver is completely self reliant to the point that no-one can be held responsible for any mishap this elevated individual might encounter. Would he/she die, it would certainly be his/her free choice."

Certification cards available from me for USD 2999.
 
A very good post. I will comment on some minor detail here.


Yes and no.

Some wrecks can be more dangerous places than some caves. There are razor sharp edges and spikes in wrecks that can tear your drysuit and let the icy waters in. We know how that ends. There could be all kinds of stuff floating around too - a major entanglement hazard - and it's not cave line. You cannot cut cable or wire unless you were insightfull enough to bring wire cutters with you. Older wrecks might be on the brink of collapsing and entrapping the unwary. A cave diving course cannot fully prepare one for penetration wreck dives. Further study is needed. It could be books, though. I'm not a tech wreck diver, but I did do some private study.

Mine diving also sounds so simple, but do you know the mining methods used and the type of rock and the dangers they pose? Mines, too, contain cables and wires and sharp edges. And rotten pillars. Don't get buried in a collapse. I know a mine that has acidic water so if you dive there a lot the chrome plating of your 1st stages is soon gone. Not a place to do mask removal drills. There's a need for specific knowledge on mines. You might not need a course if you read enough.

Our CMAS one star course explained ppO2 and the maximum recommended values.

The PADI nitrox course did not bring any new info, unless the knowledge of oxygen cleanness for partial pressure fills counts as one. That could have been explained in one or two sentences though, so what's the reason for a nitrox class? Well, profitability! The instructor needs to make a living, which I believe is a fair demand. I do not teach for money, so this opinion is impartial.

If you only take PADI courses, then you'll need that nitrox course too.

And I did, and I also assembled my kit myself, and hours upon hours of GoPro footage and one near-death-experience later I had deep knowledge on the subject. Today there are nice courses available and I would recommend them.

Getting the cylinders properly trimmed requires some help from another knowledgeable sidemount diver. I've been in a situation where an experienced ocean diver had badly fitted sidemount gear. It was a disaster. We can skip the siltout stuff, that's not bad, we can dive by touch, and there is line, but the unconscious diver in the ceiling part was nasty. Fundies doesn't make you a sidemount diver, ok? Contingency planning is also critically different from backmount. I would recommend sidemount courses, the tech ones, not the fun ones.

Yes. We all want this certification:

"DIVER.
This diver is certified to dive in water and in all kinds of aqueous solutions, with the possibility of suspended matter, to any depth, in any temperature and visibility and current, during both day and night, alone or in groups, with his/her choice of equipment and/or suit or without either. No ceiling, hard of soft, nor marine life or night life, shall limit his/her right to dive and all life sustaining breathing gasses are allowed, would the diver choose to bring expendable gasses. This certification gets automatically revoked in the case of diving related death."
I have done all, so I know what I am talking about :wink:
Even some caves are extremely sharp. I know some examples. And also then cold water came in a drysuit, and it was a very big hole.
When I did my cave diver course there was no minediver course and no technical wreck diver. And the ccr cave course was just started for 1 year or so.
You can agree or disagree with what agencies state, but this is how it is. The distance in a cave is bigger than in a wreck. But I agree, mines can also have cables and such things and sometimes a mine is more tricky to dive than a cave. If a wreckdiver goes into caves is more critical than a cavediver doing a wreckdive. The difference between mine and cave is smaller than between wreck and cave. But the cave cert covers all. You know how to use lines, you know risks of sharp edges and entanglement, etc. A wreckdiver never learned complex navigation and 100's of meters into overhead.
But I will not say a wreckdiver course is ********. If you are not a cavediver, oh yes, take it and you will learn a lot. The minediver is usefull if there are not caves near you. Exactly how it is designed by agencies. And always know the risks. A good riskassessment is needed for every dive, especially overhead.

Same with sidemount I will never say a sidemount course is useless, but it is a course that learns you things that can be learned autodidactal also. It is not different from a drysuit course in this way. Agencies don't require it to go to a next course. But yes, I also agree that even some instructors don't know how it works. To get the cylinders trimmed, you can use the help of another sidemount diver, this can be a 'normal' diver or an instructor. But you can also use a camera on a tripod or so. With an instructor it can be done faster most times, but if you borrow a harnass for the course and then buy your own, you need to start over again with adjusting and need again some dives most times. :wink:

I like the option to do such courses, but don't like it if this is required. Optional is good, required not. Then you can decide yourself or together with an instructor if you need it. And this is how it works. Easy say you need it, no, I don't agree. If you think you need it, yes, please do it. It can have some advantages or make progress faster.

For solo it is a good course for recreational sportsdivers. But the technical divers have a higher cert. The technical cert also covers self sufficient/reliant/solo.
So required if you want to dive solo, yes. But then also accept the technical certs.
 
@Subcooled I'd like to hear your thoughts on that, please elaborate on the ciritical contingency planning differences between sidemount and backmount?
Gas is gas. So a twin 12 means 24 liters of gas. If you split this in 2 times 12 liter you still have 'twin 12'.
The only thing is you need to know from what regulator you breath and you don't want to breath 1 tank down so that you aren't self sufficient anymore. Just switch every X bar or minutes from regulator. The rule of third still applies. And 6000 liter gas is still 6000 liter.
 
Gas is gas. So a twin 12 means 24 liters of gas. If you split this in 2 times 12 liter you still have 'twin 12'.
The only thing is you need to know from what regulator you breath and you don't want to breath 1 tank down so that you aren't self sufficient anymore. Just switch every X bar or minutes from regulator. The rule of third still applies. And 6000 liter gas is still 6000 liter.
LOL. Everything you say is true. But the question was not directed to you.
 
And in my case I can tell you exactly what is in those two courses because I've taught them both. They are essentially identical. And they BOTH require that you do the class or you don't get the certification. There is no "I'm good enough, give me a card" BS. You want the card, do the damn class. You don't want the card, fine, but don't spout off about how you deserve it because you are wonderful.
I never said I deserve the 'card'. I said I know what is in the courses, AND that my GUE trained (and TECH) buddies feel I am competent as a solo diver. If I ever want the card I know I have to do the WHOLE course and pay the WHOLE fee. Same thing with drysuit certification. I have had a really bad in-water course from what should have been a very good instructor along with quite a few mediocre ones. I took PADI Tech40 as a skill evaluation course and ended up teaching the classroom part. The in-water part was a one-and-done thing and didn't even meet PADI standards. When I complained (and reported to PADI) I was told that he didn't feel any need to have me do more, I was clearly competent. I almost didn't accept the card, but realized I was only cutting off my nose to spite my face.

I'm a competent diver, but not the best out there. Even if I was, bad things (including death) can (and have) happened to the best. That is why I always strive to learn more and have some critical self-evaluation skills.
 
I have done all, so I know what I am talking about :wink:
I believe that.
Even some caves are extremely sharp.
Good point.
When I did my cave diver course there was no minediver course and no technical wreck diver.
And I said that those courses are not necessary if you study those environments yourself.
The distance in a cave is bigger than in a wreck.
Very true usually.
Although, if it's deck 12 to the engine room...
If a wreckdiver goes into caves is more critical than a cavediver doing a wreckdive.
True, unless the wreck is MV St. Thomas Aquinas.
But the cave cert covers all.
Yes. The cave cert does attest that one has brains.
You know how to use lines, you know risks of sharp edges and entanglement, etc.
True.
A wreckdiver never learned complex navigation and 100's of meters into overhead.
That's a **** wreck diver. A wreck could be 100+ meters long and have several decks.
But yeah, on average, true.
But I will not say a wreckdiver course is ********.
No. It's good if the instructor is good.
Same with sidemount I will never say a sidemount course is useless
Because it isn't.
You can do without, but it'll be painfull.
but it is a course that learns you things that can be learned autodidactal also.
True. But how long would that take?
Surely we can all reinvent the special relativity theory, given 270 years. It's not that complicated but it takes time to invent.
To get the cylinders trimmed, you can use the help of another sidemount diver, this can be a 'normal' diver or an instructor.
True.
But you can also use a camera on a tripod or so.
Yeah. I did just that. It was a slow process, though.
With an instructor it can be done faster most times
True
, but if you borrow a harnass for the course and then buy your own, you need to start over again
Yes
but don't like it if this is required.
We do share common values.
For solo it is a good course for recreational sportsdivers.
I was not a solo diver until I started doing team solo dives in zero visibility in a confined space in an overhead environment. It got really serious (tight spots) and I understood that if I screw it up, I will die, and nobody can help. Harsh reality, I'd say.
 
Put it another way; SDI (a recreational agency) have a two day workshop for Solo Diving, basically it's a two day assessment of the diver's skills; the diver should already have those skills.
I remember the 1st day of my course, was on dry land; with my instructor probing me with questions, getting to see if I had the "mindset" to solo dive. Checking out my gear, to make sure it was suitable for solo diving.
 
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