Virginian diver dead at 190 feet - Roaring River State Park, Missouri

[crofrog]

Shrugs I can't control you feeling attacked but seriously there's more to BO planning than academics.

I didn't say "attacked", it's just a logical fallacy, but please feel free to present an actual argument.

 

[lermontov]

People seem to bring HF up alot recently. I don't think his breakdowns are wrong and I like to read his stuff but don't think it's all that helpful either. He tends to pile up a bunch of factors that have possibly contributed to a bad outcome, fair enough, but IMHO neglects to hammer down on core issues that actually cause the accidents. He also keeps bringing up stuff we supposedly only know in hindsight, even though some of these things are well known for a very long time, it's just that people knowingly, blatently and deliberately ignore things.

Im not sure what you are expecting, hes not trying to produce a coroners report. Im currently doing an online course of his and his work seems to me to be the study and process of decision making ie how we reach certain decisions, some of which are influenced by seemingly unrelated factors that only become important when viewed in context with everything else.

I know we want definitive answers because thats how our brain works but sometimes we cant find the answer because we don't have all the information, and what information we do have sometimes doesnt make sense, clearly underlined by the fact weve had nearly 500 posts trying to analyse it from every angle and we still dont know why he did a dive like he did.

He also keeps bringing up stuff we supposedly only know in hindsight, even though some of these things are well known for a very long time, it's just that people knowingly, blatently and deliberately ignore things.

because its simply the fruit of deviation - a simple example -rushing to get in the water started maybe an hour ago when we had to change a battery then we grab our gear and rush through our checklist because everyone is waiting for us. We see a cell is slow to respond but we don't worry because we dived this morning and it was ok so well just keep an eye on it and any way we have a nerd ...and on it goes.

HF info is a tool to help us to identify the process which fills out the picture more than just trying to find one core issue- if we keep trying to find the silver bullet without context we will miss an opportrunity mitigate our risks

 

[berndo]

Im not sure what you are expecting, hes not trying to produce a coroners report. Im currently doing an online course of his and his work seems to me to be the study and process of decision making ie how we reach certain decisions, some of which are influenced by seemingly unrelated factors that only become important when viewed in context with everything else.

I know we want definitive answers because thats how our brain works but sometimes we cant find the answer because we don't have all the information, and what information we do have sometimes doesnt make sense, clearly underlined by the fact weve had nearly 500 posts trying to analyse it from every angle and we still dont know why he did a dive like he did.

This case is a bad example. Look at the 'what if' film. I was expecting that they point out the what the actual problems were. Which are clear as day but only really mentioned as a sidenote. Almost everything discussed there was IMHO completely unrelated to the accident. (The one in the film, not roaring river)

And, no, we don't have 500 posts of people trying to analyse. To do any analysis worth anything you kinda need to be a cave/ccr/trimix diver who is familiar with what was going on in this project. I don't know the people posting but I reckon it's a handful who could do analysis, if that. I'm not one of them. This thread is for the most part just people chatting about a story they heard.

because its simply the fruit of deviation - a simple example -rushing to get in the water started maybe an hour ago when we had to change a battery then we grab our gear and rush through our checklist because everyone is waiting for us. We see a cell is slow to respond but we don't worry because we dived this morning and it was ok so well just keep an eye on it and any way we have a nerd ...and on it goes.

HF info is a tool to help us to identify the process which fills out the picture more than just trying to find one core issue- if we keep trying to find the silver bullet without context we will miss an opportrunity mitigate our risks

This concept is the same you learn about in a rescue diver class. It's just put in more complicated terms. Stress factors fill up you bandwith and you're more likely to make mistakes. Again, using the film as an example. The issue wasn't several little factors leading up to the accident. There were massive issues but they were related to the conduct of the instructor.
Often times we actually do have definate answers and we need to point them out. In the example from the film, he didn't point them out, but should have, IMHO.

I still think people should read his stuff.

 

[lermontov]

This case is a bad example. Look at the 'what if' film. I was expecting that they point out the what the actual problems were. Which are clear as day but only really mentioned as a sidenote. Almost everything discussed there was IMHO completely unrelated to the accident. (The one in the film, not roaring river)

Once again...., the purpose of HF is to understand the thought process of leading up to making bad decisions -not to identify a cause

And, no, we don't have 500 posts of people trying to analyse. To do any analysis worth anything you kinda need to be a cave/ccr/trimix diver who is familiar with what was going on in this project. I don't know the people posting but I reckon it's a handful who could do analysis, if that. I'm not one of them. This thread is for the most part just people chatting about a story they heard.

youre honing in on a definition of a word -lets replace 'analyse' and use 'trying to understand what happened'

This concept is the same you learn about in a rescue diver class. It's just put in more complicated terms. Stress factors fill up you bandwith and you're more likely to make mistakes. Again, using the film as an example. The issue wasn't several little factors leading up to the accident. There were massive issues but they were related to the conduct of the instructor.
Often times we actually do have definate answers and we need to point them out. In the example from the film, he didn't point them out, but should have, IMHO.

I still think people should read his stuff.

you cant take an incident out of context and just say-this was the cause we mustn't do it -theres so much more going on. If you want to pinpoint the roaring river death as using an incorrect gas it doesnt really resolve anything because the vast majority of divers would agree with that, it doesn't really help us to understand why.

I get where your coming from - I too lean to want definitive answers but now as ive gone through the online learning I read incidents in a completely new light and its made me relook at a lot of my pre dive preparation and thoughts. The goal is not to find a cause and create a rule to never do this or that, but to arrest any deviation of norms and wrong thinking that can start many steps before 'the incident'

you said you have done reading - have you do the whole course of 14 modules ? -its well worth the investment

 

[berndo]

you cant take an incident out of context and just say-this was the cause we mustn't do it -theres so much more going on. If you want to pinpoint the roaring river death as using an incorrect gas it doesnt really resolve anything because the vast majority of divers would agree with that, it doesn't really help us to understand why.

I don't wanna take something out of context. I was talking about the case in the 'what if' film they made because this was more clear cut. I can't really say anything about roaring river.

I think in the 'what if' example, they should have pointed out the major issue as I feel they didn't do that.

you said you have done reading - have you do the whole course of 14 modules ? -its well worth the investment

I've only been reading his blog posts and articles.

 

[PirateFoxy]

I don't wanna take something out of context. I was talking about the case in the 'what if' film they made because this was more clear cut. I can't really say anything about roaring river.

I think in the 'what if' example, they should have pointed out the major issue as I feel they didn't do that.

But the point is that there *isn't* one single major issue that causes these things to happen. Errors that seem like simple obvious mistakes don't happen out of the blue usually - they happen because a whole host of other things stack up to create a scenario in which it's easy to make a simple obvious mistake. The simple obvious mistake at the end of the line of errors isn't really the thing to be worrying about, it's conducting yourself in ways that produce lines of errors because then ANY little simple slip up can become major.

 

[tomfcrist]

I am not sure where you dive and who you dive with but nowhere I have been is it common practice to lie to your computer.

Lol…you must be new.

Although there is no need to lie to a computer that has adjustable GF’s and the like, it used to be very common practice to lie to a dive computer. There are multiple reasons to do this, just not with a modern multi gas tech computer like a Shearwater.

 

[berndo]

But the point is that there *isn't* one single major issue that causes these things to happen. Errors that seem like simple obvious mistakes don't happen out of the blue usually - they happen because a whole host of other things stack up to create a scenario in which it's easy to make a simple obvious mistake. The simple obvious mistake at the end of the line of errors isn't really the thing to be worrying about, it's conducting yourself in ways that produce lines of errors because then ANY little simple slip up can become major.

It can be the case but as a general statemant it's not true. There are many cases were a single deliberate decision and not one or more mistakes directly caused an accident. When you pile up a bunch of more or less far fetched contributing factors, it's not helpful, I think. That's why I used the specific example from their film.

 

[PirateFoxy]

It can be the case but as a general statemant it's not true. There are many cases were a single deliberate decision and not one or more mistakes directly caused an accident. When you pile up a bunch of more or less far fetched contributing factors, it's not helpful, I think. That's why I used the specific example from their film.

You do know that human factors isn’t just a thing one dude made up for a website and movie about a diving accident, right? It very much *is* true that in the majority of incidents, there are more issues involved than the single final error. A single deliberate decision does not occur in a vacuum - human factors is about what causes someone to make the final decision, in addition to the decision itself.

This has been observed again and again in accident and incident investigation in a wide variety of environments. When you address the things going on prior to the final decision, you greatly reduce the number of incidents FAR more effectively than just telling people ‘don’t do this specific thing.’

 

[berndo]

You do know that human factors isn’t just a thing one dude made up for a website and movie about a diving accident, right? It very much *is* true that in the majority of incidents, there are more issues involved than the single final error. A single deliberate decision does not occur in a vacuum - human factors is about what causes someone to make the final decision, in addition to the decision itself.

This has been observed again and again in accident and incident investigation in a wide variety of environments. When you address the things going on prior to the final decision, you greatly reduce the number of incidents FAR more effectively than just telling people ‘don’t do this specific thing.’

Yes, I know what it is. Are you familar with the case I'm talking about?