Unknowing divers endangering kids

[String]

So I should have swam over and checked the nonexistant instructor badge on the diver and the nonexistent divemaster candidate badge on the kid who was around 1 second from dying a really miserable death?

How about a better system, stop jumping to conclusions, stop assuming you knew more than anyone else in the water and actually see if there was a problem or not.

Dude, this is not difficult to figure out. This guy was certified, he didn't pay close attention during the gas laws part of his OW course

I didnt realise you were also an expert in underwater psychic powers. Thats one hell of a conclusion to make. The bloke was certified (ok, given you didnt bother checking afterwards you just assumed that too but thats another matter). He was certified therefore has passed exams on gas laws. You have no way of proving otherwise.

, and he put a child in danger. He probably isn't a bad guy, he just didn't know what the heck he was doing.

... and if the child was certified then he put nobody in danger, both knew what they were doing and it was a bit of harmless fun. You never actually bothered to find out yet still making large unsubstantiated claims. Its looking more like you didnt know what you were doing and never bothered to find out instead choosing to make up the rest of the story to apportion blame.

Your whole certified diver doing a freedive & breathing off of another certified diver's octo argument just has no basis in reality here.

Again thats one hell of an odd conclusion tomake considering you never bothered to actually find out. One certified diver definately (you claim). The other may or may not have been and you didnt bother finding out. Its totally possible to have had 2 certified divers here.

I am trying to keep from being derogatory here, even though I probably have been already, but I just can't see why you seek to justify this.

Because you evidentally werent in posession of all the facts, jumped to conclusions about certifications, jumped to other conclusions about the knowledge of the certified diver, decided you knew more than anyone else and seem totally unable to accept the fact that they may well have known what they were doing and knew the risks.

How about the father came here and started a thread about him and his son sharing air in the shallows nearly having to break it off as someone appeared without a buddy frantically gesturing? Two sides to every story. Your conduct was hardly text book either.

 

[String]

..no one is suggesting that someone's way of diving is inferior or that they are incompetent.

The comment about knowing placing a child in danger? The comment about being unaware of gas laws. Those and several others show hes hinting he thought that way.

It is simply a matter of being concerned for someone else's welfare.

Equally ironic when he himself was solo diving thereby by lots of peoples definitions was inferior and against the guidelines he chooses to ridicule someone else who may NOT have been against guidelines (he never bothered to find out).

 

[String]

The obvious point that I was making is that not all certified divers make the connection...once a swimmer breathes off scuba he is no longer a swimmer.
It is very likely that the adult may not have considered this.

Its no more likely or less likely than he DID consider it.

The poster knew nothing about the certification level of either person. He just assumed the adult was a clueless muppet because he didnt like what he saw. For all he knows the father could have been an instructor trainer or very highly qualified diver and fully aware of it. The child could well have been a fully qualified diver (he neglected to give an approximate age at all).

Again trainig and exams means theyve had the information. After that its up to the person to actually use it. Being certified should mean personal responsibility and an end to nannying. If they arent capable of safely using that information alone, they should never be certified.

 

[String]

Id say he reacted irrationally and over the top. By all means have a word outside the water and ask if its ok. However coming to a busy message board and villifying the person involved (lack of understanding of gas laws, placing a child in danger) without ONCE bothering to obtain a single fact as to either persons level of qualification just shows hes trying despreately to highlight himself as some sort of hero and also hinting hes thinking hes far more qualified to know more than these people (despite never bothering to find out any details).

A quiet word to check its ok and nothing more is fine, bringing it public and then making accusations without bothering to have a single fact to back it up is ridiculous and totally wrong.

 

[DandyDon]

I was once asked to bring my scuba kit to a family reunion so I could take kids to the bottom of the pool. The risk didn't click (I was still new) so I mentioned this to one of the Instructors I work with. He brought it up, it clicked, and I dropped the idea totally.

BTW, I've known certified divers...even a few that were enrolled in a Divemaster course...that didn't realize the potential ramifications of swimming down and breathing off someone's alternate. Sure...they knew that they should never hold their breath while ascending on scuba. But it just hadn't clicked in their head that once they took a single breath off that octo that they were no longer 'swimming'. They get this puzzled look in their eyes when reminded of this...then the light turns on!

That's how I felt back then. "Oh yeah...!" This is not taught in OW classes, and it wasn't the first time the obvious missed me.

The obvious point that I was making is that not all certified divers make the connection...once a swimmer breathes off scuba he is no longer a swimmer.
It is very likely that the adult may not have considered this.

What's the harm in having a few words with the adult. It appears that this is exactly what the fool did...and it appears that the adult accepted what the fool had to say in the spirit in which it was intended. Hey, I'd appreciate it if someone showed concern over the safety of my child...just as long as that was truly their motive. If they're just being jerks, then I'll tell 'em where to shove it!

I think Scubafool's actions were quite honorable. I'd have expected an ungrateful response from the diver holding the kid, and perhaps skipped it - but I hope I would have done what Scubafool did. Bully for you SF! :medal:

 

[cummings66]

I think Scubafool's actions were quite honorable. I'd have expected an ungrateful response from the diver holding the kid, and perhaps skipped it - but I hope I would have done what Scubafool did.

Here's my take on things, new feelings here since I've been a father for only around 2 1/2 years. I never knew things change once you have kids, it becomes personal, almost as if he's doing it to your kid. In the past I felt sad, but didn't take it personally. Talking with other parents it seems that many relate things to us and our kids, even if it's all the way across the country.

First, both sides have merit to their arguements, but one thing is missing. When it concerns kids we owe them some degree of protection from harm or potential harm. They are the future and just because an adult is present that doens't mean the kid is safe, many adults are potential Darwin Award winners and will take their kids with them if left to their own devices. I have seen that first hand when a dad flew into a storm against common sense and killed himself and his boy. That boy did not have the ability to make a decision and because nobody in the past confronted this pilot for his reckless behavior he killed his son. Sad, and as a parent I take it as my duty to protect if needed a person who can not make an informed decision.

So, extending this to the diver it was correct and reasonable to approach the parent and express your concern, and equally your duty to apologize if you are wrong about what was going on.

I think many of fools arguements are not that great, for example I can stay under water with a 3mm wetsuit easily without weights once I get to around 10 feet. So don't assume wearing a wetsuit means you'll rocket to the surface because it depends on the person.

In the end it's a sad commentary on society when we feel it's not correct to offer advice when it "appears" something is amis. How many of the school killings could have been prevented if the others who noticed things were not quite right spoke up and brought it to the attention of the parents. As a new parent I believe that if I did something without thinking it through I'd like for somebody to point it out to me. Safety is without a doubt my biggest concern for my daughter and I'll assume most other parents feel the same way, our kids are important to us as are yours.

 

[Halthron]

I haven't made any assumptions.

You most certainly were.
You weren't there (post #13) and you stated he was "too young to be stupid". You're challenging (making assumptions about) either his experience level or his intelligence and you don't even know the kid. Heck, the only thing known about age is that he was described as a "boy" and was with a "man". Think about those questions I asked

 

[GreenDiverDown]

You most certainly were.
You weren't there (post #13) and you stated he was "too young to be stupid". You're challenging (making assumptions about) either his experience level or his intelligence and you don't even know the kid. Heck, the only thing known about age is that he was described as a "boy" and was with a "man". Think about those questions I asked

Actually, the comment was in regards to the fool's comment on the Darwin thing and has nothing to do with the price of tea in China.

Edited to reduce fatigue.

 

[scubafool]

LOL, everyone sure has been having fun.

OK, String, check it out.

With a young boy in a wetsuit, no weightbelt or fins on the boy, the man holding the boy in his arm, the boy breathing off the diver's octo. was I to say the least. After a brief second of racing thought, I decided not to intervene at that point, as I thought that that might precipitate the uncontrolled ascent that so worried me. Instead, I got rather close to them, hoping that if the kid happened to slip out of the man's arm, I would be able to grab him before he lost the reg and paniced.

That was pretty much all I had to go on at that point. And on the subject of jumping to conclusions, from the above, how did you manage to extrapolate that I suddenly appearred gesturing frantically?

After a very short time they surfaced, and I followed them to shore. I approached the guy, and said "It might not be any of my business, but if you had lost your grip on the boy & he headed to the top, do you really feel certain that he would remember to breath out?" His response was that he felt he would have been fine, that this was really shallow. I explained to him that one can embolize and die in less than five feet of water. He said that he wasn't going to take him back out again that day.

This was the information that I based my perception of the diver's understanding of gas laws on. That also led me to the impression that the boy was not certified, since the diver said that "he wasn't going to take him back out again".

Question. Don't ALL OW classes stress to NEVER hold your breath? Isn't that like Rule Number One for SCUBA? I don't think that I had the best OW class out there, but our instructor really stressed this issue. So why do we have people who don't realize the extremely grave danger that they are putting others in who don't know & in fact are too young to truely understand by doing things like this?

OK, if I were to REALLY stretch my perception here, I might possibly see where you could get the idea that I want to be a hero & that I think that I am smarter than everyone else. But let me assure you, I don't want to be a hero, I don't crave recognition from the adoring masses here on SB, & I am fully cognizant of the fact that I am nothing more than an ordinary joe. My diving abilities & my knowledge of diving are laughable in comparison to so many others that I have met.

I started this thread to engender discussion on this particular subject, in the hopes that it might reach someone else who might not see the harm in such an action. The last thing on my mind was ridiculing others or building up my esteem here on ScubaBoard. I probably wrecked any chance of being an honored member a long time ago.

 

[eandiver]

Thank god no one was at Alexander Springs 2 weekends ago and saw me do 2 solo dives AND take my 9 yo daughter out to the depression breathing from my octo (but never going below the surface)