Today's OW Course

[DCBC]

I have to believe that they simply didn't see the added value ... or didn't believe it was important. In this case, I did everything possible to inform them and they still chose the faster, cheaper option.

I agree Bob. Faster, cheaper is what they want. In my opinion, the training agency should be responsible to insure a reasonable standard-of-care and safety. They could do this by increasing standards; dive shops would have no choice but to conform. PADI dropped the bar and that's what started this mess in the first-place.

 

[rstofer]

I think you're misconstruing what was said ... it has nothing to do with "come back after you've got 25 dives" ... it has everything to do with "You'll get way more out of the next class after you've had a chance to assimilate what you've learned in this one".

There are a few of you up there whose opinion I highly regard. In this case I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

I believe that 4 training dives is a bit short when considering two such divers diving together. I am going to continue to maintain that taking more classes and having more supervised dives is a good thing.

I do agree that doing more dives before taking advanced classes will result in a better class experience. No doubt! The problem I have is that I would rather see someone take the class and get less out of it rather than have them dive with another newbie while they get that prerequisite experience.

Consider Rescue: Sure, it's better if the student has 50 dives or so. But any skill at rescue is better than none. Even if the student only grasps the bits about recognizing stress and self-rescue, that's far better than nothing. If they have a real interest, they can retake the class when they have more experience. In fact, here's a way for instructors to get 'victims'. Invite your previous Rescue students to participate.

As to newbies diving with divers with vastly more experience, I am not a fan of that either. It is pretty easy for the experienced diver to get the new diver into situations well beyond their abilities. The new diver doesn't know any better and this is just another example of "trust me" diving. I'm not saying that all experienced divers are thoughtless but the possibility exists. The problem is that the new diver is unlikely to say "Hey, this is beyond my ability!". They're going to go with the flow and take their new experience back to their newbie buddy. "Hey! Check this out!".

So, here's where I'm at: a new diver shouldn't dive with another new diver. They shouldn't dive with a highly experienced diver either. Who do they dive with? How about an instructor?

If you don't think the new OW diver should take AOW, how about offering PPB, Navigation and Search & Recovery. These are low risk, shallow and skill building classes. Of course, given these three specialties, AOW is sort of anticlimactic (other than the Deep dive and possibly a Boat dive). But the student gets the benefit of additional early training and, more important, diving with an instructor.

I'm going to stay in my safe little corner and advocate more training early in the process. I don't care WHAT class is offered as long as the new diver gets more than 4 supervised dives before venturing forth to conquer the oceans.

The PADI program is considered inadequate because it doesn't provide enough training. Presumably additional training at the very beginning is the answer. After all, that's the difference between a 24 hour program and a 40 hour program: 16 hours at the beginning. Fine, provide it! Offer additional courses immediately after OW.

Richard

 

[rstofer]

I agree Bob. Faster, cheaper is what they want. In my opinion, the training agency should be responsible to insure a reasonable standard-of-care and safety. They could do this by increasing standards; dive shops would have no choice but to conform. PADI dropped the bar and that's what started this mess in the first-place.

I don't think the students want any such thing. They don't know what they want. When you buy a car, you go to a dealership. When you want food (to cook), you go to a grocery store. When you want to learn to dive you go to a ... dive shop. Maybe the only dive shop within driving distance.

It's the LDSs that want to offer the shortest possible program because they sell their wares after the OW class. The faster they can churn through students, the more gear they can sell.

The LDS is PADI's customer, not the diver. Sure, the diver pays the bill but the course wouldn't be sold unless the LDS sold it. Hey, maybe that's why NAUI has fallen off a cliff. PADI responded to the desires of the LDSs and grabbed up the market share. NAUI was just a little late getting started on the downward spiral.

I don't think it is fair to put this off on the agencies. The LDSs want to sell gear and they can't do that unless they can churn out divers. Shorter program -> higher throughput -> more revenue.

Richard

 

[gcbryan]

I actually agree that it would be a very good thing if there were 4 "fun" dives with the class instructor the next weekend after certification. I think this would be more beneficial than AOW at that point.

I know what I really wanted was to actually have a little fun after the certification process. Instead I took AOW and had a little more work to do.

This is why some people drop out...they never got to the fun part.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I actually agree that it would be a very good thing if there were 4 "fun" dives with the class instructor the next weekend after certification. I think this would be more beneficial than AOW at that point.

I know what I really wanted was to actually have a little fun after the certification process. Instead I took AOW and had a little more work to do.

This is why some people drop out...they never got to the fun part.

Several shops in our area have offered (and may still ... I simply don't follow their programs anymore) monthly fun dives for their newly certified divers, pairing them up with shop staff to help them gain more experience.

Personally, I think it's good business as it keeps those divers engaged.

Richard ... NAUI may have fallen off a cliff where you live, but about a third of our local dive shops are NAUI shops. When you also calculate in the independent instructors teaching here, NAUI has a stronger-than-average presence in the PNW. For that reason, my perspective on the effectiveness of their programs may be different than yours.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Kingpatzer]

So, any time a company comes in with lower prices (and services) you call it an imbalanced market?

Any time? No, of course not. When they are large enough to drive other's behavior because of market dominance? And part of the equation is having an informed consumer. That's why insider trading is disallowed -- having one person making a trade who has more information than the person they are trading with gives them an unfair advantage. That imbalances the market as well.

The dive certification industry is inherently imbalanced because the consumers are without any viable information for the most part. The only information the customer has to go on is cost and time. They are unaware of differences in training standards or how those standards might effect their safety, their skill level, their enjoyment of the sport, their predilection to remain in the sport, etc. And the 'expert' instructors are telling them that they will be safe after only a few days of training.

I'd rather go to Home Depot and buy things cheaper than buy the same things (with less variety) at the local Mom and Pop.

There's a difference between inexpensive and cheap. Buying products at Walmart and Home Depot often results in a greater long term expense than buying the more expensive, but less cheap, product elsewhere. But the average consumer isn't going to know that. This can be caused by a lack of knowledge, or a desire to spend as little as possible in meeting needs. In scuba diving the likelihood is that it is much more of the former and far less of the later.

In locales where large box stores have killed the local competition, the problem is also one of a lack of choice on the part of the consumer.

There is no market principle that guarantees that any company once started can continue and can continue even in the face of change.

I never claimed there was an inherent right for a company to flourish. But I think you hit on a very key point. PADI is a company who makes profit off of selling certifications, not off of training divers. They could not care less about the quality of their training or the quality of the divers they turn out. What they care about is maximizing profits through properly marketing the sale of certifications.

This is really the heart of the problem. Profit motives will always trump moral imperatives.

Some companies are more effective and efficient in dealing with change and those are the ones with the profits and the jobs to distribute.

To use the Walmart example the company doing well by having 'jobs to distribute' does not serve the community well as those jobs lower wage standards, do not come with any benefits and in general cost the community more than the business returns to the community. The net effect of the large box store model is to harm, not help, the local population.

So, since some Mom and Pops are doing well differentiating themselves there is no reason that some dive organizations can't do well by differentiating themselves.

No one has said they could not. My point again is as the market relates to the effect on population, not on the difficulty of a particular organization in staying around. I said before I don't see NAUI or CMAS or SEI failing as organizations. But they are continually losing their ability to provide balancing information to the market.

People have to deal with change. I may not like it when sitting under a tree if an apple drops on my head but gravity being what it is...I still have to deal with it. Just because I used to be able to sit there without getting hit doesn't mean that now the laws of physics are imbalanced.

One of they ways people can deal with change they don't like or want is to organize to drive a counter challenge to the prevailing force. The discussions around standards are in some ways a first step in that direction. If enough of the smaller organizations came together to offer a higher standard of training, to form a voluntary non-profit professional organization for their instructors, subjected themselves to peer-audits of their training quality, and in other ways demonstrated a commitment to a higher standard than PADI, they could have enough market presence together to force changes opposite of what we currently see.

However, that is not likely to happen for a variety of reasons, not least of which is the perception between those organizations that they must stand against all others in competition. They don't. They could work together to make the imaginary self-governance of the scuba industry a reality.

 

[Walter]

I don't think it is fair to put this off on the agencies.

Why not? No one else wrote their standards. Each agency that lowered standards did it of their own free will.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

However, that is not likely to happen for a variety of reasons, not least of which is the perception between those organizations that they must stand against all others in competition. They don't. They could work together to make the imaginary self-governance of the scuba industry a reality.

Yeah howdy!!

To my concern, the biggest thing holding back scuba diving as a growth industry is the perception that they compete against each other. They don't ... they compete against all the other recreational activities that attract people with discretionary money to spend. If the bar were raised sufficient to give people a better sense of confidence and comfort coming out of Basic level training, there would be far less dropout ... and economies of scale would eventually make scuba diving a lot less expensive to participate in.

Even on a local level, I see dive shops sniping at and trying to undercut each other ... while the majority of the people they trained last year have decided to go off and spend their money on some other recreational activity ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Ytsejam]

As a brand new diver (8 dives after OW) I read this thread with much interest, having started a similar one on my own, wondering how to proceed after my OW.

In short, my LDS tried to sell me a AOW, EFR, Rescue Diver package, after my 4th unsupervised dive. I posted here, read the comments, talked to divers, dove some more and then I realized that I could go for the AOW (just more supervised dives and skill practice) and EFR, but having serious boyancy control issues and diving rental gear (wrong size BCD, leaky connectors, etc.) I was nowhere near ready to take the Rescue Diver course. I've read the syllabus and can't imagine being able to concentrate on the drills, whilst struggling to maintain depth and trim. I would just be a spectator, NOT an actively involved participant and I felt that, in my case, the course deliverables would be at best questionable.

So I chose to dive some more with a more experienced buddy (not in order to have a babysitter around, but just so I wouldn't be expected to babysit some equally inexperienced diver, when I should be concentrating on my skill development) and then do a Boyancy control course (UTD Essentials), before doing Rescue, which I agree is a must for any diver.

And, yes, I wish that OW training lasted longer and gave new divers more skills and knowledge, before issuing c-cards.

I'm posting this just to give the perspective of a new diver, not to dispute what has been posted in this thread.

 

[rstofer]

Why not? No one else wrote their standards. Each agency that lowered standards did it of their own free will.

Because I believe they responded to the market forces. They sell what the LDS wants to buy. The LDS is the customer, the student simply pays the bill. I believe the LDS is the driver in all of this.

I believe the LDS (and by extension, their instructors) is solely responsible because they have no long term interest in divers. They want to sell the rig and move on to the next diver.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that. Capitalism is what it is. Money talks, everything else walks.

The only alternative is to take training completely outside of the commercial environment. Have government mandate a training course and do independent testing. Just like a Driver's License. In California, we can't even get a Boater's License and there are far more fatalities in boating than in diving. BTW, I don't support the Boater's License either.

Auto dealerships don't train drivers, they sell cars. Schools (public and private) train drivers. They don't sell cars and they don't issue licenses. DMV provides the testing and licensing.

If that's the model everyone wants, move to Quebec.

Every month we rehash the same old story. Training is inadequate. Well, it certainly isn't what it was. But the DAN numbers sure don't prove it is insufficient.

Richard