Today's OW Course

[gcbryan]

It's not Walmart's fault that they destroy local economies either . . . except that it is. When one company has a substantial death grip on the market space, they get to set the terms of the discussion.
...

And exactly how do they get that death grip other than having a better business model than the next guy? (Let me guess it has to do with China).

Home Depot put a lot of overpriced Mom and Pop hardware stores out of business. Their business plan was to complain about Home Depot. Other Mom and Pop hardware stores (including some chains that turned themselves into Mom and Pop hardware stores) compete quite nicely by being niche players.

I go to the local Mom and Pop in my neighborhood for smaller items and for items for an older house. They no longer try to sell everything that Home Depot sells and they are prospering quite nicely...perhaps that would be a better approach for NAUI...playing the victim isn't working.

...
To say it's not PADI's fault is to mistakenly believe that the world of the scuba certification industry is a properly functioning free market. It is not. It is heavily dominated by a single player and the consumer is lacking critical information required to make an informed purchase.

And any notion that SEI and CMAS and NAUI and whoever else could engage in some large scale public education campaign to change that lack of information is ludicrous. The resources aren't there to do it.

PADI wasn't always a factor and therefore didn't always have superior resources. If one company sells their model and the other's just sit around and complains that's not a plan. GM had a dominate market share and now everyone drives a Toyota because one was a piece of crap and one never needs repairs.

Your stance is clear -- average people are stupid and you look down upon them wishing them what they deserve for the crime of being an average person. Got it. Thanks.

Apparently my stance isn't clear since you are misrepresenting that stance. You are absolving everyone of looking out for themselves and you are denying that there will be accidents in every sport and that those accidents occur more frequently to a certain subset of persons. That's not to say that everyone who has an accident is an idiot. I'm just saying that you are ignoring the fact that the accident rate is low and that there is a base level below which we aren't likely to go because there will always be that idiot factor.

Look at who drowns on rivers in inner tubes every summer at spots that are known to be dangerous...drunken people on inner tubes...what would you call them? Don't shoot the messenger.

 

[Diver0001]

I think I've just been called a PADI basher and I know I resent it. Bashing is not what I do. I point out problems I see. I do that with all agencies. I don't say, "PADI sucks." I talk about specific problems I see in PADI standards. To ignore those problems is to encourage them. Pointing them out is not bashing.



Then you point out I'm not bashing.

Sorry about that. I think I formulated the sentence badly. First I was trying to say that some padi-bashers have suggestions worth listening too then I used your example to underline the point but it wasn't my intention to present you as a notorious padi-basher. I can certainly see how it came across like that though. Badly worded. My apologies. (I re-worded it. I hope it's clearer now)

R..

 

[Bronson]

Well, I can not speak to past practice or on behalf of all agencies or instructors but let me share what i am experiencing now. I have been a PADI DM for over 10 years and see lots of PADI instructors doing open water training dives with students. I just completed the PADI AI and i am soon to start the PADI OWSI training to hopefully be an OW Instructor. I see caring, safe, knowledgeable training and instructors making sure students perform skills satisfactorily. I have even seen a few students that were not going to pass and the instructor quietly got them out of the water and told them to come back for more confined water training to get comfortable and perfom the skills before coming back for open water. Yes, failed because they could not do the skills. SO, I do not see bad instructing (at least not yet).

I have even learned to watch OW or AOW certified divers about to go into the water and i stick very close to them under the supervision of the instructor to make sure that they are safe. I have even help several recently get up , out of the water back onto the boat. Just this past weekend, I was with a OW certified diver who has not dived in over 5 years and on his 1st dive i was like glue to him. He was not part of a course and an instructor asked me to keep am eye on him (he was not doing training). By his 3rd dive he was good to go and confortable and safe. So the note above about staying current is what i would suggest is important. Dive safely to your training and experience. This is just my experiences.

regards

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Home Depot put a lot of overpriced Mom and Pop hardware stores out of business. Their business plan was to complain about Home Depot. Other Mom and Pop hardware stores (including some chains that turned themselves into Mom and Pop hardware stores) compete quite nicely by being niche players.

I go to the local Mom and Pop in my neighborhood for smaller items and for items for an older house. They no longer try to sell everything that Home Depot sells and they are prospering quite nicely...perhaps that would be a better approach for NAUI...playing the victim isn't working.

I don't see NAUI playing the victim. I think NAUI offers a different approach by empowering their instructors to offer a value-added class ... it's what allowed myself and several other NAUI instructors locally to differentiate ourselves, as independent instructors, from the training offered at the local dive shops. And although we'll never get the crowds of students that those shops get, we have a tendency to turn out better than average divers. That's in part due to the training curriculum we offer, but it's due in larger part to the type of diving student that's attracted to the courses we offer. The latter, I believe, makes us what you would call niche players.

I think you have a point to a degree ... but it's not because of PADI, NAUI or any other agency's business model. It's because the majority of students want fast and cheap ... and as in all things they get what they pay for. Those who are willing to put in the work, and pay a fair price for good instruction, already have options ... and the niche players out there are doing quite well serving their needs. I chose NAUI because it allows ... even encourages ... me to offer a higher-quality product if I should so choose.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DCBC]

As the OP, perhaps it's inappropriate for me to chime in, but some comments have been made that I can't help but respond to. I don't think that it's wrong for anyone to bash any organization, if the reason is justified.

As I've mentioned in the past, I was first certified as an Instructor in 1972 by ACUC/CMAS. The following year, I became a PADI OWSI by sending a copy of my ACUC card, along with $25.

There is no doubt that PADI has taken a strategic business approach to diving instruction. If you are going to dominate the industry, you need to have a large number of Instructors, which quickly translate to a large number of divers.

When I had a LDS, it became a PADI Facility. Despite giving out the same card, my personal standards were twice that of the PADI organization, that at the time had a minimum standard of 27 hours of training (my courses at the time were 45 hours so I could also certify ACUC and NAUI divers). To make a long story short, I ended up closing my business because I could not compete with other PADI facilities that were running courses in half the time. I'm not crying here; as I could have conformed. The shop ended-up forming the foundation of a Commercial Diver and recreational SCUBA Instructor training facility (not PADI BTW).

In 1986, I was contacted by PADI HQ and told that I was doing it wrong. That the idea was not to give the student as much training as I was giving them, but to give them a taste and get them back for additional training, which would increase income. My comment simply was "What if they don't come back?"

I can't accept the statement that it's not the training organization; it's the Instructors choice. Most PADI Instructors I've spoken to over the years that work at local dive shops have bought-in to the "PADI way." Training is modular; so we have a philosophy that is based upon (whether the Instructors realize it or not) revenue generation.

Personally I just can't buy into this. I've made my living as a Commercial Diver and Instructor. I don't need to sell my soul to make a buck.

As I see it, the majority of PADI divers are not getting trained to what I understand is required for OW diver competence. For those that do, it's not because of PADI, but it's in-spite of them. PADI Instructors that love to teach and do the best that they can do and don't teach to the minimums.

PADI gives the masses what they want; a quick path to diver certification. The fact that they are not capable to look after themselves and their buddy, is fine with the majority. As an Instructor however, it's not ok with me. Call me crazy, but I feel a responsibility for any student that I teach. I don't want to hear (regardless of how low the odds are of this happening) that one of my divers screwed-up because s/he was just not competent. It's not going to happen because they have to prove to me beyond any reasonable doubt that they are before they get the card!

Many other training agencies have been forced by their members to modify their standards so they could compete. This has been done by the greatest majority of agencies. Too late, Elvis has left the building...

In truth the current situation can't be blamed on PADI, as other agencies have also modified how they do things. I do see a problem however, but perhaps its just that I'm getting older and have lost perspective of what's really required. A diver doesn't need to do anything if he has a DM. Given the DMs standards however, I wonder about their safety as well, so who's looking after them?

I suppose this is reflective of the society that we live in. Easy and comfort is the word. As diving is close to my heart; I can't help but be disappointed. I long for the days that a basic certification meant something; students had to be strong swimmers and instructors had to be knowledgeable & experienced. A day when there were no boat diver specialty certifications....

So where does it stop? How easy do things get before we just offer books for sale? Perhaps these books could be sold by the chapter? We could do it on-line. How does $1 a chapter sound? $1 a chapter, $5 download fee per chapter, $5 for the exam, $50 to have the exam marked, $5 for the patch and $100 for the OW Diver Theory Card, $25 postage... We could market it as Learn to Dive for as Little as $1! We could nickle and dime them to death! The pool / openwater portion can be postponed until OW2 (which would shorten the time before buying equipment). Finally after buying $2000 worth of diving equipment (at an authorized supplier), they would be eligible for OW2; actual mask clearing. If not, they can dive under the supervision of a DM (no wonder why DM insurance was introduced)...

 

[rstofer]

To: rstofer (Richard)

Tried to answer the way other SB'ers do, by doing quotations and dealing with each point. Didn't work, so the hard way.

I learnt to dive in the '70's in a club which had the motto "each one teach one". After 1st level, we would get experience, diving and buddying with more qualified members, before going after the next level. My trainees, after certification, can still do the same thing - in a club, with friends or with myself. But always buddying with a more qualified and experienced diver. This is the point I was making, newbies haven't got the experience or correct reflexive responses to buddy each safely. How ever did this get to 'how they'll get the 25 dives' and the intimation that I've abandoned them, is a bit beyond me. Btw, I am great believer in the buddy system.

Your reference to 'the old Advanced OW' recognises that it did exist. It was designed out of the system to make way for modules (more $$$?). You further stated that it takes instruction to get to MSD++. Isn't that what we want?

I should also point out that portions of your specialities are already included in my scuba diver course. This course takes a minimum of 40 hrs. and includes rescue, buddy breathing, buoyancy, hovering, SAC calculations and navigation.

Hardly seems to be abdicating.

Of course every new diver wants to buddy up with a more experienced diver. I felt the same way. But why would an experienced buddy want to dive with me? In fact, the group I dove with in Singapore was already buddied up. They had no interest in diving with me. I'm not complaining; over time I felt the same way. Still do. As the newest member, I was the one that got stuck with the tourists.

So, I took OW I, OW II, Advanced OW and Rescue back-to-back. The only experienced diver that would dive with me was my instructor. That's ok! The only diver I thought had enough experience to meet my criteria WAS my instructor. It turns out that my buddy-to-be took the same program at the same time and we went on to dive all over the world - Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, the Maldives and the California coast.

I'm not an instructor, it's not my job to hold another diver's hand while they learn the skills necessary to survive. Further, I'm not qualified nor do I want the responsibility/liability. Moreover, why would a new diver want to learn my bad habits?

Instructors always say that "Only qualified instructors can teach diving" and then, when the all important first dives come around, they want nothing to do with their students until they somehow manage to survive the first 25 dives. Yes, I call that abdicating!

Keep teaching! Encourage every new diver to immediately take either Advanced OW or one of the diving specialties. Keep them engaged and keep providing competent training. That's the way to create safe divers.

Club training just doesn't happen in the US. There are clubs and there may be more advanced divers helping the newcomers. But there is no requirement to join a club. And there is no requirement that club members train newbies. Maybe it happens, probably it doesn't.

In other countries, dive instruction is routinely undertaken by clubs. BSAC comes to mind. That is NOT the US model. Our training is strictly commercial.

But, who cares about the training model? You can't prove from the DAN statistics that diver training is inadequate. All you can prove is that nobody over the age of 40 should be allowed to dive. That, and you shouldn't dive for more than a year.

Richard

 

[Walter]

Sorry about that. I think I formulated the sentence badly.

Apology accepted. I've been guilty of not being careful with my words as well. I appreciate your efforts to clarify.

 

[Diver0001]

It's because the majority of students want fast and cheap ...

I actually wonder if that's the main motivation, Bob. It's probably part of the equation, but the way I see it, when it gets down to brass tacks everyone wants to be safe. The fact that they'll accept minimal training has to do with a peculiarity in human nature. Nearly everyone thinks they're better than average. Better looking than average, smarter than average, better than average dRivers .... etc etc.. you get the picture...

So why does this trait lead to people accepting minimal training? Simply because students aren't buying "training". They're buying "access". They want the card, not the process, so if they can get to that goal faster and cheaper somewhere else they'll do it and pressure on time and budget for training is huge. Why don't most people want to buy "training"? Because they're the same overconfident ones who think they're better than average dRivers and they'll be able to sort out the wrinkles as they go....

In other words, they don't want to buy training not because they want "fast and cheap" but for the simple reason that they don't think they *need* training.... but they know they *need* the card. The brilliance of PADI as a commercial company was that they recognised this and played into it.

R..

 

[gcbryan]

I hear you DCBC for sure. I just wonder if all of the other agencies other than PADI trying to compete with a PADI OW class for $200 by countering with $300 but telling the prospective student...but we're better ... trust us...were to offer a much better and much more expensive class wouldn't have better luck.

What if every other agency only had a $500 OW class that lasted twice as long...in other words a meaningful difference. Then perhaps prospective students would ask more questions as in why are all other classes twice as expensive and maybe there is a good reason for that. Then maybe you would get some of the more serious students.

That's not the way it goes now. You go to a NAUI shop for instance and they charge you just a little more but tell you that they are better. That's not very persuasive but charging over twice as much would cause students to ask PADI to explain how they can do it for so much less than everyone else. It might wake the students up.

I don't think anyone is going to change PADI. They don't want to change but for every other agency that does want to change I think they can if they approach it right.

 

[DCBC]

... it's not because of PADI, NAUI or any other agency's business model. It's because the majority of students want fast and cheap ... and as in all things they get what they pay for.

Hi Bob,

The business model is what it is because of the market's desires, not in-spite of them. Just "because the majority of students want fast and cheap ..." doesn't mean that's what they should be given.

I believe that the diving organizations (in many cases) fail to see their responsibility to provide training that is safe and reasonable. I think that it's fair to say that Government regulation occurs, where self-regulation does not.

An example of this is the provincial government of Quebec in Canada. The government was not content with the level of training offered by any recreational diving certification (as a result of several diving deaths that occurred there). Diving is now regulated by the Government; our NAUI Instructor ratings mean nothing and we cannot legally dive there without a "Sport Diver Certificate."

Instructors like you are making a difference. I do not believe that an Instructor should feel that they have to teach more than the minimum standards. If the minimums are low, they should be raised. The certification organization should not leave it to the Instructors to sort out what's safe and reasonable. They should be in the driver's seat.