Today's OW Course

[drdaddy]

Well, when I completed my OW certification class, I had never successfully performed a descent (with or without reference) without hanging onto my instructor's BC. The one time I tried it, I got lost and ended up on my back on the bottom all alone. I passed the class and got my OW cert. I certainly HOPE they did it because they figured they'd be able to talk me into AOW immediately (which they did, because I'm not entirely stupid).

I don't know whether they allowed me to finish with inadequate skills so they could sell me AOW, or whether they didn't worry about my inadequate skills because they knew I was going to do AOW and they could fix them (which they didn't, and in fact made no effort to do so), or whether they just didn't care (which I think is the answer, and find that chilling).

My husband believes that they passed me because they were sure I wasn't going to go off and do anything rash and stupid. But I managed a number of uncontrolled ascents over the next couple of months (including one from 70 feet) until I acquired a mentor who patient began to help me fill in the holes in my education. This is why I am such a strong believer in the absolute necessity of mentoring in this sport; too many divers are turned loose with marginal or simply inadequate skills, and they go out with enthusiasm and eventually give up because they got badly frightened, or because it just isn't fun when you aren't under control.

I bless the people who taught me to have control of my position, my momentum, my buoyancy, and myself. They kept me a diver. My mainstream classes really did little or nothing to accomplish this.

I have a dive buddy whose native language is not English. He tried 3 different dive shops, each of which took his money. He "completed" and received his PADI cert cards for everything up through Rescue Diver. He wanted to go beyond that and had visions of DM, etc. But the dirty deal was that he had "passed" all these classes and did not understand nor could he perform adequate buoyancy!!! At each dive shop, he paid money and expected some mentoring, but never received it - they took his money and then pushed him out, sometimes allowing him to come on repeated trips, but ignoring him - until he finally went away.

Now, I know there is more to this story because this man can also be difficult to get along with, but the fact is that they passed him on to this level and he really could not dive properly. In one case, we were in the same "high altitude" dive class, and an instructor warned me not to dive with him because he was not safe!!! Well, if he was not safe, why were they letting him dive? Anyway, I did buddy with him and he had an uncontrolled ascent from 70 ft (high altitude). I did not follow him right up, but did my safety stop and looked for him on the surface - I was worried sick. We finally ended up at the instructional base. He later (weeks later) told me he had a headache after this - DUH!!! Did an instructor ever take this guy aside and really work with him?

This man lived (and still lives) in the same town as me and was (and still is) willing to dive regularly, so I decided that I would teach him - and I did. First thing I did was get myself a redundant air supply (pony sling), as I knew he could not be depended upon - and I really do believe that every dive is a "solo dive", regardless of the buddy, you are responsible for yourself. I taught him how to buddy (remember - a LDS had passed this guy as a Rescue Diver?), including making a dive plan, taking a compass bearing, what do to in case one got separated from his buddy, and how not to get separated! During dives I would grab his BCD and pull him down and dump his air. I would confront him after dives and tell him what he was doing wrong. Anyway, 2 years later = no more uncontrolled ascents, his posture is great - he's a great dive buddy. But the fact of the matter is, these three well know shops passed him on and left him as a danger to himself (and others).

 

[RonFrank]

One get's out of the course what one brings to the table to a large extent. IOW's study the materials, learn the materials, pay attention to what the instructor is teaching, ask questions when needed, and take it seriously.

Most instructors I know bend over backwards to do a great job in the time-frame they are provided. I agree it may have become easier to learn the minimum, do the minimum, and still pass. However none of the instructors I know teach like that, and it IS up to the student to pony up a bit in a course that is designed for the student to come prepared.

Could it be better? Certainly. Does it need to be better? Well, see my opening remark.

 

[drdaddy]

Simple solution is to skip the first day of diving and stay off charter boats. OK, so that's silly, but no more silly than "More years of diving did not seem to improve your odds of survival." Compare apples to apples.

I think it's dangerous to not make statements like that when they are true. I think instructors almost always try not to violate standards. I also think those standards, for some agencies, are so low they are not safe standards to follow.

Maybe scuba diving is inherently dangerous and its just a matter of time and it will get you. Maybe some of these "accidents" aren't accidents, like teenage car "accidents". Maybe scuba diving has a lot of luck, as well as skill, involved. Also, some people learn from their own and others mistakes and others don't. I see this all the time, as a psychologist, in my patients. In the case of scuba diving, however, if one doesn't learn from their and others mistakes, it can be fatal.

Also, maybe its just a fact that people should not be taken out on these charters and "turned loose", but the fact is that if these charters provided the personnel needed to safely supervise these divers, it would be too expensive and nobody would pay, so it's the profit that drives those that should know better (charters) to take out those that don't know better (tourist divers).

Myself, I'll pay the extra to have my own divemaster in a place or experience that I do not feel confident to dive, and/or I will not dive where/when I do not feel it would be absolutely safe for me. I have actually done this once, where they were going to switch out the divemaster guide for a night dive (after we had been diving with a wonderfully competent DM all day). I said I did not feel comfortable with going on a night dive with an unknown DM and would forgo the dive. Our DM quickly said (standing beside her instructor boyfriend who was waiting for his date), "I'll take you" and we went. I tipped her well!!! By the way (a few years later) she and her boyfriend now own a shop and we dive as friends - won't take my money!

 

[ReefHugger]

To: rstofer (Richard)

Tried to answer the way other SB'ers do, by doing quotations and dealing with each point. Didn't work, so the hard way.

I learnt to dive in the '70's in a club which had the motto "each one teach one". After 1st level, we would get experience, diving and buddying with more qualified members, before going after the next level. My trainees, after certification, can still do the same thing - in a club, with friends or with myself. But always buddying with a more qualified and experienced diver. This is the point I was making, newbies haven't got the experience or correct reflexive responses to buddy each safely. How ever did this get to 'how they'll get the 25 dives' and the intimation that I've abandoned them, is a bit beyond me. Btw, I am great believer in the buddy system.

Your reference to 'the old Advanced OW' recognises that it did exist. It was designed out of the system to make way for modules (more $$$?). You further stated that it takes instruction to get to MSD++. Isn't that what we want?

I should also point out that portions of your specialities are already included in my scuba diver course. This course takes a minimum of 40 hrs. and includes rescue, buddy breathing, buoyancy, hovering, SAC calculations and navigation.

Hardly seems to be abdicating.

 

[gcbryan]

It's not PADI's fault that NAUI and the other agencies can't differentiate themselves from PADI by offering longer, better, more expensive and complete instruction. That song is getting old.

In most cases people get what they deserve. If someone is stupid enough to learn to dive in a weekend course and then is willing to go and jump in the ocean with a DM in an unknown location and they have a problem then that is what happens to stupid people. It's not limited to diving.

At it's lowest level diving is no different than drivers training. It's a very low standard but most people manage to survive and become better (at least with driving).

Many of us on this board had lousy initial diver training and yet many of us are quite proficient. How did that happen? It's because of the individual and the ability and the desire to continue to learn.

Idiots get into trouble in all fields of endeavor...not just diving.

It would be great if the quality of training increased. If an agency removed itself from the dive store and the necessity of selling gear this would happen.

Proficient divers having to deal with divers who are not proficient is really the main problem with the industry today. It's not like all that many people are dying considering that it's a sport that takes place in the water.

It's just irritating for all the reasons already mentioned. The entry barrier is very, very low. It's not that low in other higher risk sports even in totally unregulated ones.

Rock climbing is totally unregulated but out of shape people who only want to climb once a year don't make it to first base in that sport. Unfortunately, in diving they are making home runs day in and out.

Deaths in diving are low. Divers are older and more affluent and of course will have higher health risks. So what?

The category of idiots killing themselves on their first day in the water...what's new? What day would you prefer that idiots kill themselves? Why worry about idiots?

The training aspect could improve but not by whining about PADI. Forget PADI. Invent the better mouse trap.

Business doesn't operate just to lower costs and thereby increase profits it operates to increase profits. You can have a quality operation and increase profits. It's not about lowering the costs per se. People accuse PADI of lowering the costs but marketing is a cost. They could drop that and lower the costs even more. They don't because it results in greater profits.

If longer more through classes result in greater profits due to greater demand then that will happen as well. Some one just has to make a good case to the public and they aren't doing it at the moment.

Everyone other than PADI needs to stop being the victim. (I could care less about PADI by the way).

 

[Diver0001]

Rock climbing is totally unregulated but out of shape people who only want to climb once a year don't make it to first base in that sport. Unfortunately, in diving they are making home runs day in and out.

I took an entry level rock-climbing course. Believe me when I say that entry level divers are *much* better trained than entry level climbers. The *only* reason I can see that deaths and injuries in climbing don't happen more often is the grigri. A grigri is completely idiot proof and it's a good thing most beginners use them.

The category of idiots killing themselves on their first day in the water...what's new? What day would you prefer that idiots kill themselves? Why worry about idiots?

You're assuming that people who get in trouble while diving are low-intelligence and deserving of their fate. That's pretty darned cynical. I very much doubt that people who get in trouble are "idiots" coming out of the gate. In fact, I would submit that *anyone* is capable of an error in judgement. Shouldn't the training be at least good enough that when they make a mistake they have at least *some* skills to fall back on?

The training aspect could improve but not by whining about PADI. Forget PADI. Invent the better mouse trap.

Got to agree with that but I think some good suggestions do get made even by people who are critical of the shortcomings. Walter often mentions the lack of swimming and skin diving skills (basic comfort zone building skills) as essential to training. There's nothing stopping an instructor, even a PADI instructor from doing more on this. Why don't we? The suggestion is getting made.... who isn't listening?

Business doesn't operate just to lower costs and thereby increase profits it operates to increase profits.

That's an interesting take. I think at the LDS level, a lot of them are not trying to increase profits..... many LDS's aren't even making it past the stage of trying to survive. Changes that drive costs up but increase quality are non-starters for a lot of LDS's because they're already on financial life-support. The business model of using training as a loss-leader so you can sell gear to new divers is what needs attention here. Greed plays a very limited roll in the politics of scuba training if you ask me. To me the main issue is that "quality training" isn't a "product" that a lot of them can sell (or dare to try).

R..

 

[gcbryan]

I took an entry level rock-climbing course. Believe me when I say that entry level divers are *much* better trained than entry level climbers. The *only* reason I can see that deaths and injuries in climbing don't happen more often is the grigri. A grigri is completely idiot proof and it's a good thing most beginners use them.

We use grigri's more in the gym than outside here. I've been dropped by people misusing grigri's. The reason that more climbers don't die is that they KNOW that they are on their own from the start and act accordingly including realizing who should and shouldn't be climbing in the first place. That doesn't occur in diving.

You're assuming that people who get in trouble while diving are low-intelligence and deserving of their fate. That's pretty darned cynical. I very much doubt that people who get in trouble are "idiots" coming out of the gate. In fact, I would submit that *anyone* is capable of an error in judgement. Shouldn't the training be at least good enough that when they make a mistake they have at least *some* skills to fall back on?

I'm not being cynical or assuming that everyone who gets into trouble is an idiot but if you read many/most accident reports the set of circumstances often brings the word idiot to mind. This can mean very poor judgment as well. It doesn't have to refer to low intelligence in every case.

I'm not arguing for lower standards in training by the way. I'm just saying that it would be nice but doesn't explain many accidents and I'm just pointing out the reality that idiots do exist and show up in greater numbers in these accidents.

When you read accident reports and they start out with a new OW diver with 5 dives decided to go to 200 fsw on an AL80 at night in cold water...you pick the proper word to use...or someone who was a new diver and had a problem with being anxious in the water decided to go diving solo to try to work on this problem and died...and the list goes on. You can pick a nicer word than idiot to use but if the shoe fits...

That's an interesting take. I think at the LDS level, a lot of them are not trying to increase profits..... many LDS's aren't even making it past the stage of trying to survive. Changes that drive costs up but increase quality are non-starters for a lot of LDS's because they're already on financial life-support. The business model of using training as a loss-leader so you can sell gear to new divers is what needs attention here. Greed plays a very limited roll in the politics of scuba training if you ask me. To me the main issue is that "quality training" isn't a "product" that a lot of them can sell (or dare to try).

R..

I agree that most dive shops are so poorly thought out and run that it isn't about greed. I just think more problems would work themselves out regarding the training if it was removed from a dive store environment. I think most dive stores are going out of business no matter what they do.

 

[Kingpatzer]

It's not PADI's fault that NAUI and the other agencies can't differentiate themselves from PADI by offering longer, better, more expensive and complete instruction. That song is getting old.

It's not Walmart's fault that they destroy local economies either . . . except that it is. When one company has a substantial death grip on the market space, they get to set the terms of the discussion.

And one of the things a free market requires to function correctly is that everyone involved in a transaction has to be fully informed. In scuba certification that simply never happens. The student doesn't come to the table knowing the nuances of different training protocols, or the differences in standards between agencies, or any of a myriad of other bits of data that are important. There are not readably available 'consumer digests' of the diving world.

Moreover, in many locales, the realities of competing in this small market space means that only the shop that entices the most people -- which means PADI -- exist. And that is not because of some superior quality of product, but merely due to the fact that lacking all relevant information the consumer makes their decision on price and time -- the only two variables they have to measure. PADI, by way of offering very perfunctory training, wins that battle every time.

To say it's not PADI's fault is to mistakenly believe that the world of the scuba certification industry is a properly functioning free market. It is not. It is heavily dominated by a single player and the consumer is lacking critical information required to make an informed purchase.

And any notion that SEI and CMAS and NAUI and whoever else could engage in some large scale public education campaign to change that lack of information is ludicrous. The resources aren't there to do it.

In most cases people get what they deserve. If someone is stupid enough to learn to dive in a weekend course and then is willing to go and jump in the ocean with a DM in an unknown location and they have a problem then that is what happens to stupid people. It's not limited to diving.

To live in society it is necessary to trust people to some degree. When a 'certified master scuba instructor' tells you that they can make you a safe diver in a weekend, then the consumer believes them. You can say that the average consumer is stupid if you want -- but the reality is that people act in very predictable ways. That's why advertisers have jobs.

Idiots get into trouble in all fields of endeavor...not just diving.

That doesn't mean a responsible community allows idiots to continue to endanger themselves and others. Drunks go to jail because some idiocy is simply not tolerable. When the "idiocy" involves systematized inadequacies in training for a dangerous hobby, there's a problem that goes beyond the individual consumer.

The category of idiots killing themselves on their first day in the water...what's new? What day would you prefer that idiots kill themselves? Why worry about idiots?

I'd go on answering you, but there's really no point. Your stance is clear -- average people are stupid and you look down upon them wishing them what they deserve for the crime of being an average person. Got it. Thanks.

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

A couple of observations:

It's not uncommon for newly "certified" divers to complete their training and never really moved off the training platform.

Many divers go months.... even years between dives. A large number of the Tune-up students I get got certified, dove maybe once or twice, then have not been in the water since.

Perhaps the dive industry needs to police itself by demanding a signed and up-to-date dive log before the diver even gets on the boat. Although it's a pain, I don't blame the resorts that require a skills test before one is allowed to dive.

At times it appears as if we are our own worst enemy.

I think that would actually not be as helpful in gauging a diver's ability as you think. I have divers come here all the time from the Red Sea. These folks are steady divers and have hundreds of dives there and beautiful dive logs. Then they come to me, where diving can have challenging conditions, and they lose their minds. I have had old navy or commercial divers come to us who have been out of the water for years, have no idea where their dive logs had been stored..... They are rock solid divers.....

So, I just se that as the solution.
People think about this. Of the thousands of divers certified around the world every week between all agencies, how many are dangerous? I think the percentage is small in that context. How many of the total new car drivers get their licenses and then wreck the car the next week? Perspective.

On personal note, you have my cert card. If you, as a boat operator want to look at my computer to see the date of my last dive, I will allow it. But otherwise, you don't get to interrogate me before the dive. I would go elsewhere.

 

[Walter]

I think some suggestions do get made even by notorious PADI bashers. Walter, for example....

I think I've just been called a PADI basher and I know I resent it. Bashing is not what I do. I point out problems I see. I do that with all agencies. I don't say, "PADI sucks." I talk about specific problems I see in PADI standards. To ignore those problems is to encourage them. Pointing them out is not bashing.

...often mentions the lack of swimming and skin diving skills (basic comfort zone building skills) as essential to training.

Then you point out I'm not bashing.