Today's OW Course

[DCBC]

The LDS is PADI's customer, not the diver. Sure, the diver pays the bill but the course wouldn't be sold unless the LDS sold it. Hey, maybe that's why NAUI has fallen off a cliff. PADI responded to the desires of the LDSs and grabbed up the market share. NAUI was just a little late getting started on the downward spiral.

The LDS may be an affiliate, but only if they have an Instructor certified through the Association, or they can't play. A PADI or NAUI Facility cannot certify a diver; it takes an Instructor to do that.

The certification agency is only involved if and when the Instructor chooses to involve them. Independent Instructors often compete with PADI and NAUI facilities.

So the real customer of any certification agency is the Instructor. Both PADI and NAUI are Instructor Associations and are not an Association of Dive Shops. The dog wags the tail, the tail doesn't wag the dog. The problem is that many organizations have sold-out to the commercial entities. Standards were lowered. Still it was those Instructors that went along with it (and were paid to do so). So yes, I see this as a moral responsibility unheeded.

The tempter was the LDS, the tempted were the agencies and their Instructors. The loser was the student.

 

[ReefHugger]

Richard,

Once again you have chosen not to understand. So be it.

I agree wholeheartedly with DCBC, Walter and Bob. Imo, the agency is morally, if not legally, responsible for its students' safety.

Diver safety is paramount. It requires training, instructions, and time. How can splitting this in two be justified, when most will not return for part two?

It still takes 9 months to make a baby. How do you make half a baby??

 

[rstofer]

I do understand that there can be independent instructors. But I suspect the vast majority are serving at the convenience of the LDS. They may or may not be employees but if the LDS doesn't contract with them to teach a class, they're probably out of work (as an instructor).

I know there are some truly independent instructors working out of their garages but the average new student won't run into them. The newbie shows up at a dive shop and that's where it starts. They have no say in selecting an instructor, no say in the program offered and certainly not enough information to make a decision even if it were offered.

The focal point is not the instructor, it is the LDS. They 'sell' PADI versus NAUI, they select the instructor that best accommodates their needs and the rest soon becomes history.

There is nearly constant turnover in the 'instructor of the month'. Some come into favor, some fall out of favor, some just drift along. But it's a fallacy to believe that an instructor is anything more than hired help. And temporary at that...

Richard

 

[Ana]

As a brand new diver (8 dives after OW) I read this thread with much interest, having started a similar one on my own, wondering how to proceed after my OW.

In short, my LDS tried to sell me a AOW, EFR, Rescue Diver package, after my 4th unsupervised dive. I posted here, read the comments, talked to divers, dove some more and then I realized that I could go for the AOW (just more supervised dives and skill practice) and EFR, but having serious boyancy control issues and diving rental gear (wrong size BCD, leaky connectors, etc.) I was nowhere near ready to take the Rescue Diver course. I've read the syllabus and can't imagine being able to concentrate on the drills, whilst struggling to maintain depth and trim. I would just be a spectator, NOT an actively involved participant and I felt that, in my case, the course deliverables would be at best questionable.

So I chose to dive some more with a more experienced buddy (not in order to have a babysitter around, but just so I wouldn't be expected to babysit some equally inexperienced diver, when I should be concentrating on my skill development) and then do a Boyancy control course (UTD Essentials), before doing Rescue, which I agree is a must for any diver.

And, yes, I wish that OW training lasted longer and gave new divers more skills and knowledge, before issuing c-cards.

I'm posting this just to give the perspective of a new diver, not to dispute what has been posted in this thread.

Thank you for taking charge of your road to becoming a diver.

Lots of talk about agencies and standards. I understand the requirements are very low, but I get the feeling they are not followed ...even as low as they are.

Is a diver supposed to get a card even if a splash of water in the face startle them like they are about to die? I've seen this happen,not once but several times, makes me wonder how do they shower.

More than accident and death numbers I'd love to see how many students get turn back without getting a card.
I can see how there may be some slow people that requires additional time, but sometime the instructors fool themselves. By thinking they are so good they can have someone afraid of water complete this or that skill, they are just delaying the inevitable for later on when the person doesn't have someone to hold their hand.
Grow a pair and do not give a card to those that don't belong in the water.

 

[Web Monkey]

Richard,

Once again you have chosen not to understand. So be it.

I agree wholeheartedly with DCBC, Walter and Bob. Imo, the agency is morally, if not legally, responsible for its students' safety.

Diver safety is paramount. It requires training, instructions, and time. How can splitting this in two be justified, when most will not return for part two?

It still takes 9 months to make a baby. How do you make half a baby??

While the agency sets minimum standards, the instructor has the option (and the obligation) of not sinking to that level, and still holds final responsibility for the diver that they're sending off into the world.

Aside from safety and training enhancements, our OW class hasn't changed a whole lot in the last 20 years or so. It still has a minimum of 7 or 8 classes, with no upper limit on class or pool sessions, even though I beleive SSI isn't too far behind PADI in the Race to The Bottom.

Even if SSI said that we could sign off on a student after showing the Risk Awareness video and letting them blow bubbles in the sink, we wouldn't. There are just some places where you need to make a stand.

Terry

 

[rstofer]

Richard,

Once again you have chosen not to understand. So be it.

Please don't confuse my contrary opinion with a lack of understanding. I understand exactly what people are saying. I just don't agree.

Sure, it would be swell if the PADI program was 40 hours. But it isn't and it never will be again. You can't show that any agency is failing in their responsibilities because, if they were, they would be sued out of existence. You can't even show from the DAN statistics that the agency is even remotely involved in the vast majority of fatalities. You don't have one shred of PROOF that the training is inadequate.

It's just too easy to say "It's all PADI's fault! They lowered the standards!". Well, other than YMCA (now SEI) and LA County, so did everybody else. And they only did it because their customer, the LDS (and resorts), demanded it.

If all the instructors are so concerned, why don't they just extend the course on their nickel. Oh, hell no! They have to teach to the "standards" and not one minute beyond. Twenty four hours and out! Or whatever the magic number is these days. And not all instructors either...

Then the same instructors bemoaning the crappy curriculum turn around and say they don't want to re-engage with their students until they finish that high risk set of 25 dives or so.

It's the instructor that has the moral obligation to turn out a proficient diver. If it can't be done in the context of OW then at least offer additional training immediately after OW. After all, that's just what the old program was: the basics plus additional skills like buoyancy, navigation, etc.

So, yes, I understand exactly what is being said. I just don't agree!

Richard

 

[rstofer]

More than accident and death numbers I'd love to see how many students get turn back without getting a card.
I can see how there may be some slow people that requires additional time, but sometime the instructors fool themselves. By thinking they are so good they can have someone afraid of water complete this or that skill, they are just delaying the inevitable for later on when the person doesn't have someone to hold their hand.
Grow a pair and do not give a card to those that don't belong in the water.

The LDS hires the instructor to teach a class that will buy dive gear as soon as they graduate. Failing students, while a great idea, doesn't sell gear and it certainly won't keep an instructor employed.

Since there are dozens of instructors for every one that is working, getting on the bad side of the LDS by failing students isn't a way to fund more dive gear.

So, create a government commission, create instructor standards, create diver standards, cancel all current instructor certs (they are products of the same failed standards) and start over with something like a Driver's License. Remove all training from the LDS.

What do you get? The end of diving. Nobody want a 'sport' that is regulated. They get enough crap working for a living. The LDS doesn't get involved with the student until after they are trained elsewhere so they don't necessarily get to sell that first rig. So, they're out of business. A regulated training system will require far fewer instructors so, they're out of business too.

And so it goes...

Besides, the numbers just aren't there to prove that training is inadequate. It's just easy to state that it is and then watch people pile on.

BTW, in all of these posts, I never said the training was adequate. I just said that you can't prove it is inadequate. If 82% die because they are over 40, the tiny number left just isn't worth considering.

Yes, I know that the 82% correlation with age does not imply causation. I just like the perverse view of statistics.

Richard

 

[dmoore19]

Since this is in the Basic Suba Discussions forum I guess it is OK if I comment. I have been reading this thread with great interest because I was unaware that PADI, NAUI and whoever else were not capable of training people to be safe divers. I am a PADI certified

I am not a DM Instructor or even AOW certified. With that being said what I am to belive from reading this is:

1) My training is woefully inadequate
2) I don't know anything about the "sport" of diving
3) I am dangerous to myself and others
4) Unless I get training from, fill in the blank, I am going to kill myself and somebody else as well
5) As a "vacation" diver, I will never understand the physics involved in diving let alone how to do it safely.
6) I am not capable of diving safely even within the limits of my training
7) I don't know how to properly plan or execute any dive without the help of a diver with 5000+ dives watching my every move in a setting that it is strictly 1 on 1 training until I have God knows how many dives under my belt.


The only problem I had during the OW training was with the swim, I sure was winded when I completed it. I think I have a basic understanding of the tables and how to use them. I dive with a computer, I purchased a Suunto because of the conservative algorithm used. Because of things I have read on the board, I have redundant equipment, SPG, Depth Gauge and a watch. I review my OW manual frequently, just because I question myself about different things, I go to the pool and work on my boyancy and other skills. Yet I still can only afford to do 1 or 2 dive trips a year which by the definition that is portrayed her is a Vacation Diver. I have a trip scheduled for later this year. After that (with probably +/-40 dives under my belt) I am going to consider AOW.

So, how do any of you, being the experts you are, (meaning experts in a sincere way not being sarcastic) propose the masses get the "proper" training other than just going diving and getting the experience needed to be a safe diver?

 

[DCBC]

...it's a fallacy to believe that an instructor is anything more than hired help. And temporary at that...

This certainly can be the case, but you miss the larger picture. I can only speak for myself and what I've done for the past 37 years. If I run a course for a LDS; it's on my terms. If I'm the one that is to sign-off on a student; the game is played by my rules, or we don't play. I'm not saying that this is the situation that all Instructors find themselves in, but it's their choice to make.

Currently I teach for a Club and the Dive Stores compete for the Club's favor. It was the same way when I was the Training Director for the Underwater Club of Canada in 1976; the Club had 400 members and ran three pool locations in Toronto. Although the Dive Shops have become the main focal point for education currently; they are not the exclusive source. Like I said, Instructors have a choice.

I think that in many circumstances the Instructors teaching through Clubs or independently, do it out of love for the sport. They don't need diving to feed their families. In a way I have an inner contentment, as the LDSs are now the ones that can't compete. Myself and 3 other instructors run courses at the Club and we don't charge anything for our services. The costs are club membership ($50 / year) and the actual cost of books, log book and certification. The Club has free pool time and we use a lot of it.

The Club members provide the mentoring that has been missing since the LDSs have taken over diver education. If people ask me "Where do I get certified?" I don't recommend a Dive Shop, no matter where they are on the globe. This may however be a requirement, but it's certainly not my first choice.

 

[DCBC]

So, how do any of you, ... propose the masses get the "proper" training other than just going diving?

First, no one can say that you aren't a safe diver, nor suggest to you that your training hasn't provided you with the necessary skill-sets. I think what you're reading is how some organizations have lowered their standards and others have capitalized on the opportunities they present.

Although much has been discussed about PADI's standards, that does not mean that a PADI Instructor can't insure that a person is trained to a level that meets or surpassed these. If however your Instructor (regardless of his afilliation) "pushed you through" to make room for another group of students and you didn't meet the minimums, chances are you may be unable to dive safely.

Every Instructor is an individual and as such teaches what he wills. He has been tested, certified and capable of teaching you to a certain "standard" (which are not all the same). Whether he does that of course, who can say?

My personal belief is that you are much better trained through a Club, but others will have different opinions.