Today's OW Course

[MXGratefulDiver]

Please don't confuse my contrary opinion with a lack of understanding. I understand exactly what people are saying. I just don't agree.

Yes, we can see that you don't agree. However, based on what you have stated, you are either not understanding or are deliberately misconstruing some factual information.

It's just too easy to say "It's all PADI's fault! They lowered the standards!". Well, other than YMCA (now SEI) and LA County, so did everybody else. And they only did it because their customer, the LDS (and resorts), demanded it.

It is not the LDS that creates the business relationship with the agency ... it's the instructor who agrees to teach by that agency's standards and use that agency's curriculum and teaching model. It's also the instructor who creates the business relationship with the LDS (if, in fact, they are teaching through a LDS), as well as with the student.

The LDS is not the agency's customer ... the instructor is. No LDS's name has ever appeared on any of my professional certifications, nor on my insurance policy, nor on any dialogue I have ever had with NAUI. It is ultimately MY responsibility ... as the instructor and representative of that agency ... to determine the quality of my training.

Any LDS I've ever worked for only has the power to tell me what they're willing to pay for .. and it's then up to me to decide whether or not the business agreement with that shop meets my standards and that of the agency I represent. If it doesn't, I don't teach there.

So while you're certainly entitled to your opinion ... it's wrong.

If all the instructors are so concerned, why don't they just extend the course on their nickel. Oh, hell no! They have to teach to the "standards" and not one minute beyond. Twenty four hours and out! Or whatever the magic number is these days. And not all instructors either...

When I took my OW class one of the questions asked of the instructor was "Have you ever failed anybody?" His answer was that he only failed people who quit trying. Those who were willing to keep working at it were welcomed back to the next class to keep trying until they could achieve the level of proficiency needed to pass the class. And indeed when my ex-wife took her class, she and another student required two additional pool sessions ... at no cost to them ... before they were able to meet the requirements allowing them to go for their checkout dives.

I adopted that same model ... as have many instructors I know and have worked with in the past. Most LDS's I've worked with have no problem at all having a student from a past class participate in a more current one. It's simply good business to produce divers who are going to be comfortable enough with what they're doing to continue diving.

All of my classes are open-ended ... I've had AOW classes that ran over a period of months ... with more than double the number of class dives described in the class curriculum, and many practice dives with mentors and dive buddies in between. That's not as uncommon as you seem to think it is.

Then the same instructors bemoaning the crappy curriculum turn around and say they don't want to re-engage with their students until they finish that high risk set of 25 dives or so.

I've already explained that's a false argument and why. You can keep repeating it as often as you like ... it'll still be a false argument.

Certain skills are prerequisite to certain classes. You can only develop those skills in one place ... underwater. Otherwise, you go to the next class unprepared to learn what that class is designed to teach you. Pushing people from one class straight into the next is how people walk out of a class feeling like they didn't learn anything ... and any quality instructor is not going to teach a class like that ... not at ANY level.

The fact that you admit to having bad habits is evidence that the approach you keep promoting is probably not the optimal one for learning good skills. If anything, it's a crutch intended to mask a deficiency in how you were taught.

Any instructor who tells you that you need a follow-on class before you're able to plan and execute the dives you were supposedly just qualified for failed to do their job. That's not the fault of the agency, it's the fault of the instructor who just gave you a certification you didn't earn.

It's the instructor that has the moral obligation to turn out a proficient diver. If it can't be done in the context of OW then at least offer additional training immediately after OW. After all, that's just what the old program was: the basics plus additional skills like buoyancy, navigation, etc.

But you just said above that it was some diabolical plot by the LDS's to sell more classes and gear!

So, yes, I understand exactly what is being said. I just don't agree!

The more I read your comments, the more convinced I become that you don't understand at all ... not the relationship between LDS and agency, not the relationship between agency and instructor, and not even the relationship between instructor and student.

Most likely you are the product of some crappy training ... and therefore you assume that all training must be that way.

It's not.

Sorry you got ripped off, but the majority of instructors and LDS's I've worked with have more ethics than to treat their students that way.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[rstofer]

So, how do any of you, being the experts you are, (meaning experts in a sincere way not being sarcastic) propose the masses get the "proper" training other than just going diving and getting the experience needed to be a safe diver?

By taking more classes as a result of having more classes offered earlier.

At the end of the day, I would prefer the first 20-25 dives be supervised. All of them should be training dives. OW, AOW, PPB, S&R, Nav, Deep, Rescue, etc.

Get trained! Then go diving...

But I am in the minority. Hopelessly outnumbered...

Richard

 

[Kingpatzer]

You can't show that any agency is failing in their responsibilities because, if they were, they would be sued out of existence.

A simply fallacious assumption.

 

[Kingpatzer]

By taking more classes as a result of having more classes offered earlier.

But the point of training in the first place is to produce a proficient diver. Moreover, most agencies see a very shallow returning student population. I believe PADI's is around 25% of their students coming back for additional training. There are LDS's who are proud of their 30% return rates. So the certificate factories are not selling the certificates, but they really don't care as long as there are OW students pouring through the door every day. One has to wonder, however, if the economics change and that stream dries up some, what they'll do then.

At the end of the day, I would prefer the first 20-25 dives be supervised. All of them should be training dives. OW, AOW, PPB, S&R, Nav, Deep, Rescue, etc.

I think most everyone in this discussion agrees with that point. Where we disagree is that such a level of training should go hand in hand with being certified to start with. Well, perhaps not 20 or 25 dives, but certainly more than a perfunctory 4 20 minute trips to the platform.

Get trained! Then go diving...

Which is what everyone here would like to see happen, as opposed to get a farce of a training program and be told you're ready to go diving.

 

[DCBC]

By taking more classes as a result of having more classes offered earlier.

At the end of the day, I would prefer the first 20-25 dives be supervised. All of them should be training dives. OW, AOW, PPB, S&R, Nav, Deep, Rescue, etc.

Get trained! Then go diving...

But I am in the minority. Hopelessly outnumbered...

Actually Richard, I agree with you. In-fact all my dives are training dives; I'm still learning.

If the diver is trained properly in the first place, s/he is capable to go diving with a buddy. As a certified diver, he can get involved in Club dives where he has mentors and can build-up his hours. If he's trained properly, he doesn't need a DM or an Instructor to hold his hand.

If he's not trained properly, he needs to find another Instructor.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

So, how do any of you, being the experts you are, (meaning experts in a sincere way not being sarcastic) propose the masses get the "proper" training other than just going diving and getting the experience needed to be a safe diver?

Sounds to me like you're doing all the right things ... just keep on diving and gaining experience. When you reach a point where you feel like your skills are inhibiting you from dives you want to do, sign up for the next appropriate class. Then dive some more. Get comfortable with what you learned. Integrate your new skills with those you already had to the point where you can perform them smoothly and repeatedly without undue stress.

Reserve some portion of each dive to practice a skill ... if you have a regular dive buddy, practice skills together. Make a game of it. Practice it until you can do the skill without thinking about it. Then move on to a different skill until you develop confidence that you can use all the tools in your "toolkit". Then add to them by taking the next class.

The real learning takes place underwater. So relax, enjoy your dives, and use each one as an opportunity to grow your skill set ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Teamcasa]

Having taken my first certification course back in the early 70's as a teenager and then going through the current class three years ago with my lovely bride I can tell you there is a huge difference between the two.

The early class included significantly more physical tests and skill learning time. There were no "that's good enough" passes. You had to demonstrate a real ability to perform each skill in a variety of conditions an depths. If you passed, you knew how to dive.

Today, the courses just give you the basics. After that, it is up to the individual to decide first if they are even going to continue and second, do they want more training.

If they do decide to continue then there are several options but sadly, most new divers don't explore them all, they just go down the path their original instructor sends them. Not until they begin to dive regularly do they discover just how lacking their OW training really was.

 

[rstofer]

Y
It is not the LDS that creates the business relationship with the agency ... it's the instructor who agrees to teach by that agency's standards and use that agency's curriculum and teaching model. It's also the instructor who creates the business relationship with the LDS (if, in fact, they are teaching through a LDS), as well as with the student.

I understand that perfectly. The instructor chooses which agency or agencies they will represent. Around here, if they want to work, they WILL choose PADI. Even in this choice market forces are at work. There's no point in being an SSI instructor if no LDS represents SSI.

But I don't agree that the instructor drives anything. The LDS decides what agency they will represent. Hence the 5 Star or whatever facility. An LDS can select any agency they want (subject to marketing considerations). They may have to hire an agency certified instructor but there are a lot of those around. But it's the LDS that makes the decision to put the PADI decal on the windows. And the only reason they do it is that PADI has name recognition. Market forces at work...

The LDS then decides which instructor they will hire to teach a class. If one instructor doesn't like the offer, another will. The focus in all of this capitalism is the LDS. Not the agency and certainly not the individual instructor. If the LDS grows disenchanted with the instructor, another is just a phone call away. Of course, the instructor is free to leave as well. Even if it is the only LDS within a hundred miles or more. And it means losing that 'key man' discount on dive gear.

But at the end of the day, dive training is ALL about selling equipment. It isn't about training, it isn't about relationships. It's about revenue. Take the LDS out of the picture and all you have are a bunch of instructors with no way to connect with students. And no facilities...

Maybe PADI sees that scenario on the horizon and anticipates the day they will replace the LDS as the focal point. eLearning plus a referral to an independent instructor (rather than a facility) and the LDS is no longer part of the scheme. That ought to be interesting...

I admit to bad habits. I check my own equipment and I won't allow anyone to touch my tank valve. It's just the way I am. I don't trust anybody with my life and it's worked out pretty well so far. I take absolute responsibility for my own safety and I expect everyone else to do the same.

I would describe my training as superb! I went into it fully prepared. I had bought and read every book that I could get my hands on. I had spent many hours in the pool and in the ocean in my youth (Ocean Beach, Mission Beach, La Jolla Cove, etc). I had a lot of time in the water. I took the OW I, OW II, Advanced OW & Rescue sequence and loved every moment of the training. I didn't just 'take' the training, I devoured it! And then I went diving... No regrets!

We're going to continue to disagree. But I'm going to advocate for additional training immediately after OW. I have no intention of caving in. There's no reason in the world an instructor can't feel comfortable offering PPB, S&R and Navigation right after OW.

Richard

 

[rstofer]

But the point of training in the first place is to produce a proficient diver. Moreover, most agencies see a very shallow returning student population. I believe PADI's is around 25% of their students coming back for additional training. There are LDS's who are proud of their 30% return rates. So the certificate factories are not selling the certificates, but they really don't care as long as there are OW students pouring through the door every day. One has to wonder, however, if the economics change and that stream dries up some, what they'll do then.



I think most everyone in this discussion agrees with that point. Where we disagree is that such a level of training should go hand in hand with being certified to start with. Well, perhaps not 20 or 25 dives, but certainly more than a perfunctory 4 20 minute trips to the platform.



Which is what everyone here would like to see happen, as opposed to get a farce of a training program and be told you're ready to go diving.

Then we don't disagree that more initial training is enviable. We are only arguing about how it is split into modules. And the modules are optional...

The thing is, resort diving is the market. And it just doesn't take all that much training to follow a DM. So, that's what PADI provides. Just enough to do 'follow me' dives. Unfortunately, they also say that the diver is prepared to make unsupervised dives in similar conditions with a similarly trained buddy. That might actually be true. Just as long as the diver doesn't get the idea that they should dive beyond that training. Thirty feet, 200 yards from shore, right next to a pier, etc.

I'm not surprised at the 25% advanced training number. I doubt that 75% even continue diving. If they did you wouldn't be able to park along the California coast! I don't care about the 75% number. Divers come, divers go, some stay longer than others.

Think about Monterey: they probably train 50 new divers per week at Breakwater. That's 2500+ divers a year. If even 10% showed up there wouldn't be a place to park.

But it's not in the LDSs best interest to dissuade the 75% group. If they want the adventure and they're willing to pay for it, it's probably best to provide it. Then the gear shows up on eBay and we can buy it at a discount.

But I am dismayed at the 25% advanced training number. That tells me that instructors are not advocating for additional classes. Or, if they are promoting them, they aren't doing a very good job.

It would seem to me that the instructor should work as a counselor, guiding the new diver from their freshman class through their ultimate graduation. They should be actively engaged in promoting training beyond OW. And sooner rather than later.

Go to an LDS and look at the schedule of classes. Is there a PPB immediately following every OW? How about any other diving specialties? Are they scheduled on a committed and frequent schedule? Around here even AOW is hit and miss. Everybody involved in the process has to understand that OW is just an introduction.

Bemoaning the fact that the current program is less than the old programs isn't going to do anything except use bandwidth. It isn't going to change and if it does change, it isn't going to improve.

Richard

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

We're going to continue to disagree. But I'm going to advocate for additional training immediately after OW. I have no intention of caving in.

Richard

I should hope not, Richard ... differences of opinion are what makes discussions like this one interesting. My only objection is when things that are opinion are stated as though they are fact. We come from very different perspectives ... based on a combination of location, training and personal experiences. It's important to keep in mind that what we see as factual are based on those factors ... and will inevitably be different for people reading this discussion in other parts of the world.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)