Today's OW Course

[leapfrog]

Yes, this may well be the solution. I wonder why the LDSs don't run this course as a module, since many of them push them through anyway. There sure would be a great call for DMs (which could make the LDS more money). Money, money, money, Wha ha ha ha!

I was lucky enough to work for an LDS where the owner wanted us to push Scuba Diver and refrain from OWD unless we really saw that the student was up to it. Then again it was also a leading tech diving facility....

 

[DCBC]

I was lucky enough to work for an LDS where the owner wanted us to push Scuba Diver and refrain from OWD unless we really saw that the student was up to it. Then again it was also a leading tech diving facility....

At least the shop was being honest with the students. There are too many divers being certified (at all levels including Instructor) that don't have a clue. It's not just Instructors pushing through OW students.

It kind of reminds me of the same kinda thing that happened in the martial arts; where people would be moved through the ranks based on time and membership renewals. Interestingly enough, this happened at the same time (late 70's) when diving started to undergo a similar change (I just realized that just now, interesting). :arrow:

 

[DCBC]

How about the second part of my question?

Agencies have decreased the requirements for Instructor certification, to reflect the requirements of teaching "The New Diver." Technology developments have lessened the need for in-water capability and the "New Instructor" was born.

How would increased/decreased standards for Instructor certification affect the industry? What do you think is reasonable or needed?

How about DM and AI standards? Would it be beneficial to increase or decrease the bar?

 

[Web Monkey]

It kind of reminds me of the same kinda thing that happened in the martial arts; where people would be moved through the ranks based on time and membership renewals.

Wouldn't getting your butt kicked on a regular basis indicate that maybe that black belt wasn't really earned?

Terry

 

[DCBC]

Wouldn't getting your butt kicked on a regular basis indicate that maybe that black belt wasn't really earned?

I got out of teaching because of this reason. They don't care about the ability; they just want to say they have one. Just like diving; the quicker and easier it is, the better.

At least the guy knows that he will get his butt kicked and bow out of the situation. It's not so easy for the incapable diver's buddy....

 

[Teamcasa]

How would increased/decreased standards for Instructor certification affect the industry?

Fewer people will take/pass the class. Fewer divers = less money for all that are involved. Not likely to happen anytime soon.

What do you think is reasonable or needed?

Just lowering the standard to "Scuba Diver" is not likely to happen or solve much. Needed? For safety sake it sure would but do the accident/death statistics (for new OW divers) really warrant it or is it just a sense that the new divers are not trained well enough.

How about DM and AI standards? Would it be beneficial to increase or decrease the bar?

See first answer.

 

[DCBC]

Fewer people will take/pass the class. Fewer divers = less money for all that are involved. Not likely to happen anytime soon.

How about lowering the standards for DM, AI and Instructor? That would get a whole lot more certified. If money generation is the only factor, one would think that this would be done (again). More Instructors= more divers=more money for all involved.

...do the accident/death statistics (for new OW divers) really warrant it or is it just a sense that the new divers are not trained well enough.

Many of the new divers are not trained well enough (not just my opinion, read the posts). If the Basic Diver Certification was given, the LDS could cut the training time by 40%, charge the same amount of money and make more profit. For people that want to dive without a DM, they could sign them up (oh boy more money) and give them the OW. This would do well if they actually started to give them what they paid for. An OW certification that certifies that they are able to go diving without a DM. That's better than the current situation where some people who have OW certifications can't even dive with a DM safely...

 

[leapfrog]

How would increased/decreased standards for Instructor certification affect the industry? What do you think is reasonable or needed?

I have already posted extensively in other threads about this. We need increased standards for Instructor certification. There are too many instructors going through the instructor mill. Higher standards for Instructors = Better Instructors = Better training for students = happier more confident students who will dive more = more income for LDS and resorts. It's more or less a Jerry Maguire proposition

How about DM and AI standards? Would it be beneficial to increase or decrease the bar?

The DM to AI to OWSI route is badly constructed. I would give more importance to the AI certification level. AIs should be able to teach MORE under direct supervision of an Instructor (IDCS/MI) and be signed off on that as an internship before passing on to OWSI.

 

[DCBC]

I have already posted extensively in other threads about this. We need increased standards for Instructor certification. There are too many instructors going through the instructor mill. Higher standards for Instructors = Better Instructors = Better training for students = happier more confident students who will dive more = more income for LDS and resorts.

The DM to AI to OWSI route is badly constructed. I would give more importance to the AI certification level. AIs should be able to teach MORE under direct supervision of an Instructor (IDCS/MI) and be signed off on that as an internship before passing on to OWSI.

Thanks. I believe your comments are useful, but for the sake of argument, why should the Instructor standards be higher? How would this affect the OW program? Is instructor competence (or in some cases, the lack of it) the reason for the current incompetence of some OW divers; or is it that the Instructor standards are sufficiently high and the Instructors just conform to what the LDS wants anyway? This seems to be a fine line. How good do instructors really have to be if the other standards remain as they are?

It's more or less a Jerry Maguire proposition

Do you mean "Show me the mon ney!!"

PS - Are you in Madrid?

 

[sabbath999]

How would increased/decreased standards for Instructor certification affect the industry? What do you think is reasonable or needed?

Let me jump in here on this one with a story.

I was diving in a local quarry a couple weekends ago. The water was 77 degrees, 20 foot visibility down to the thermocline, which was at 30 feet. There were two other guys diving there, one of whom I know to be an instructor at a LDS and the other guy who I didn't know.

They came up and were doing a short surface interval in the water.

The instructor said "Thats like, what, your 58th?" The other guy said "Yeah, that's right"... the instructor said "OK, then we do two more dives, go to twenty feet and stay down 20 minutes, so I can sign off on your book and we can get out of this crap. I hate diving in this crap"

Turns out they were out there doing a series of 20 minute dives to 20 feet just so the guy could get to the minimum required dives to be a DM.

I've got a LOT more dives than this DM candidate had in, going on twice as many, and not a single bleeding one of them have been of the "20 feet for 20 minutes so I can count a dive" variety... and I am not qualified (IMHO) to even START divemaster training.

Standards don't mean anything if people are willing to skirt the spirit of the rules, unless the agencies make people take rigorous individual skills tests with non-partial observers doing the testing.

People pay a lot of money to take these courses, and I think a lot of LDS's are really hesitant to fail anybody... which is why when I do eventually take my DM training I am going to go back to my original instructor who wouldn't even accept me unless he thought I was skilled enough to meet HIS standards... and would spend the time necessary to make sure I stone-cold was ready to do it and succeed.

This whole "start DM training with 20 dives" thing is a joke... the whole "number of dives" thing is a joke as well, since that is so easily (and often) manipulated.

A better standard, IMHO, is a skills review to start out with. I have been in the water with a BUNCH of DM candidates who simply don't know how to dive... and several certified DM's who frankly look worse than some new divers I have seen.

Personally, I am going to want to dive in about every condition before I feel I am read to be a DM... from drift diving (or float diving if you prefer), wreck diving, strong currents, surge, swell, cold water, zero vis, you name it... I think unless a person has a lot of EXPERIENCE in challenging conditions (and I don't yet), then they are not really ready to be a DM... but that's just my humble opinion.