Today's OW Course

[DCBC]

It's not a moral issue either. People are getting off base with this idea in my opinion. People not organizations carry their own moral compass including the ones who work for the training agencies. They are all moral people. It's not about morals....It's OK if some of you feel this way as everyone is free to their opinion of course.

I just can't think if a diver can't be trained in a safe manner by an Instructor, the Instructor is morally negligent by "pushing him along." If a diver certification agency can't insure that the level of standards are reasonably met, they are morally negligent.

Morals are a reflection of human action and character; they establish an acceptable code-of-conduct which are expected to me met. We have moral and ethical issues in healthcare, law, finance, education and most other fields. They are not restricted to individuals but include organizations. Diving organizations have outlined ethical policies for their members; why would they not be subject to these same policies and other reasonable ethical requirements? Everyone is of course entitled to their own opinion.

 

[DCBC]

NAUI's standards for the entry-level scuba diver course mandate a minimum of 14 hours for the academic part of the class and a minimum of 17 hours for practical application ... including not less than 10 in-water hours.

The logical two questions are ...

1. Are the instructors providing it? and if so ....
2. Are those minimum standards enough?

NAUI's standards manual even states that the instructors may, if they choose, intersperse additional dives between required dives, as long as they are supervised.

How many instructors do?

Why?

Hi Bob,

1. Are the instructors providing it?
I haven't taken a census, but I suspect that the greatest number of NAUI LDS courses operate on these minimums and presume that the greatest majority of Independent Instructor courses exceed these. Some courses do not cover the required body of knowledge in sufficient depth. They may meet the hours but not the standard. This is the responsibility of the Instructor not the organization.

2. Are those minimum standards enough?
Most NAUI Instructors that I have known try to teach the individual and not just the class. There are some students that can be trained properly within the minimum allotted time frame. Personally, I feel that a greater number of hours is generally required, but this is of course dependent on the size of the class and the group of individuals to be trained.

I don't know what prompted NAUI to lower the number of training hours required. I suspect it was pressure received from the diving industry to be more "competitive" with PADI, but I can't be sure.

 

[Diver0001]

NAUI's standards manual even states that the instructors may, if they choose, intersperse additional dives between required dives, as long as they are supervised.

PADI's standards allow for this too but strangely hardly anyone does it. It seems like everyone rushes to the goal and forgets that it's the process that matters.

R..

 

[leapfrog]

As some are stating, we are so much into diving that we can't see the whole picture and put diving into perspective. By calling it recreational scuba, we took the concept of effort out of diving. We also turned it into an activity that you do when you let your hair down.

What's happening in diving is just a mirror of what's going on in the rest of our society. We live in the age of "I want it now", "No hassle", "Everything is done for me".

As soon as you call a student "a customer", then they are paying to get a C card. Hence some of the Scubaboard elders' labelling the largest agency as "McDonalds".

When kids get bad reports from school, the parents blame the teachers for not motivating them or educating them.

When our economy goes up in smoke, it's everybody elses fault but ours. We may have voted for the person that we now blame for having caused the problem but it's his fault not ours. Now we may vote for somebody else to come and sort out the mess but we constantly transfer responsability for our lives and wellbeing onto others.

People have the freedom to fight for their country or burn the flag. Our forefathers didn't.

We think we are entitled to have a job, medical insurance, public services and a certain lifestyle. We don't see them as a privilege any more.

Everyone has to be responsable for their own safety. If you choose to learn to Scuba dive and do no previous research, not think about the need for quality training, think it's the same to pay $200 than $800 and then when you get a C card, you convince yourself you are now a fully qualified diver, you don't take care of your physical and mental welfare, you do a strenuous dive or just something outside your scope on your first day at XYZ resort, then you are flirting with disaster. You are also pretty dumb. Is it the agency, sure. Is it the instructor, of course. But what about the divers themselves?

 

[DCBC]

Is it the agency, sure. Is it the instructor, of course. But what about the divers themselves?

You take a handgun course from an certified Instructor, the licensing body has a low standard and the Instructor justs wants to make a few bucks; he gives you a certificate for $50. You don't know what you're doing.

You walk into a gun shop, buy a .44 mag, take it home and accidentally shoot your 6 year old because you didn't know how to store or use the weapon properly. Are you the only one morally responsible?

I can't help but hold the Instructor responsible because he knew you were a danger to yourself and others; he gave you the required certificate anyway. The agency that certified the instructor should have provided reasonable guidelines to insure that people meet a reasonable standard before the certificate could be issued.

The same goes for diving. You can be just as dead with compressed-air as you can be by any .44 mag. An incompetent diver may put his buddy or others at risk, not just himself.

As a Society, we each have certain responsibilities. We have to adhere to a reasonable standard in how we construct our homes, drive our cars and shoot our firearms; how we treat one another. All of these are not necessarily outlined by statute. We're suppose to use a degree of common sense.

If we wish to pursue any activity, we are free to do that. We do however have to act in a responsible manner. I for one don't think that it's too much to ask for professionals to act like professionals. If an organization is selling a sub-standard product, it should not be tolerated.

 

[leapfrog]

You take a handgun course from an certified Instructor, the licensing body has a low standard and the Instructor justs wants to make a few bucks; he gives you a certificate for $50.

I'm not sure how relevant this is. Most people take a handgun course to make sure they can aim and fire at an intruder in their home and hopefully they'll never have to use it.

You don't know what you're doing.

Then you're really stupid. This is an excellent argument in favor of gun control. I think you know that you and I are on the same page on most things regarding dive training. I totally agree with you with regards that professionals should act like professionals.

You walk into a gun shop, buy a .44 mag, take it home and accidentally shoot your 6 year old because you didn't know how to store or use the weapon properly. Are you the only one morally responsible?

Yes, you are.

The same goes for diving. You can be just as dead with compressed-air as you can be by any .44 mag. An incompetent diver may put his buddy or others at risk, not just himself.

Agreed. That's a good argument against resort diving and instabuddies. If people really dived with real buddies instead of finning round with a reg in their mouth at a resort, we wouldn't be having this debate.

We're suppose to use a degree of common sense.

Common sense is the the least common of the senses. People drive properly because of the law. They use their firearm properly because of the law. As posted already by others, the law doesn't make DIVERS dive responsibly. And if we suggest legal supervision of diving by the authorities we get accused of supporting "the dive police".

If we wish to pursue any activity, we are free to do that.

Maybe some people are too free to do so?

We do however have to act in a responsible manner.

You mean the divers themselves?

I for one don't think that it's too much to ask for professionals to act like professionals.

AGREED.

If an organization is selling a sub-standard product, it should not be tolerated.

Which organization are you referring to, what is the sub-standard product they are selling and who should not tolerate it/them? The market? The law? The government? And if you belong to an organization that you believe is selling such a product, wouldn't it be the right thing to do to resign?

 

[Teamcasa]

All of these are not necessarily outlined by statute...
We're suppose to use a degree of common sense...
We do however have to act in a responsible manner...
If an organization is selling a sub-standard product, it should not be tolerated.

The crux is personal responsibility. If personal responsibility and common sense were a significant part of the law, most tort lawyers would be selling used cars.

 

[DCBC]

I'm not sure how relevant this is.

It is an analogy.

Yes, you are.

Actually you are not the only one responsible.

Common sense is the the least common of the senses. People drive properly because of the law. They use their firearm properly because of the law. As posted already by others, the law doesn't make DIVERS dive responsibly. And if we suggest legal supervision of diving by the authorities we get accused of supporting "the dive police".

Diver's that do not dive responsibly and endanger the lives of another may be held criminally and civilly responsible for their actions. The Instructor is not only responsible for what he does, but what he fails to do. We are all expected to act in a reasonable and prudent manner. Reasonableness is the key.

If the certification organizations don't get control, they run the risk of having governments intervene. This has already happened in Canada with the Quebec government; which felt the safety of diver training was insufficient. It can happen again.

Which organization are you referring to, what is the sub-standard product they are selling and who should not tolerate it/them?

Any organization that would push divers through for the sake of making a buck.

And if you belong to an organization that you believe is selling such a product, wouldn't it be the right thing to do to resign?

Yes and I have.

 

[Web Monkey]

Taking more classes doesn't automatically make better divers. It depends on the class and on the diver. It doesn't hurt but the assumption seems to be that to be proficient a diver just has to have a certain number of classes.

The point is that in order to be a proficient and safe and happy OW diver, the diver needs "enough" practice before being turned loose in the ocean.

There isn't a "certain number" of classes that are required, however there is a certain comfort and proficiency level that is required.

When I'm doing mask clears with students, the biggest thing I'm looking for isn't whether it takes one breath or two. I'm looking at whether they're thinking "Holy s***! I hope he doesn't make me flood my mask" or "Yeah, whatever. Here's your mask clear."

It's entirely possible to "check the box" and certify the first person because they have actually completed the task and could probably do it again, but from my perspective, they're not ready until the whole concept of mask clearing is completely routine and boring and they're completely bored with the idea.

How long does this take? "It takes as long as it takes". Some "get it" in a few weeks, some take 8 classes, some take 16 or maybe more. The time doesn't matter. What matters is not sending ill-prepared divers out into the water, then saying "An OW card is just a Learner's Permit".

The point is that the instructor needs to stand up and be counted and not sign off on divers that can't easily perform the skills necessary to be safe and happy.

Terry

 

[DCBC]

The crux is personal responsibility. If personal responsibility and common sense were a significant part of the law, most tort lawyers would be selling used cars.

I suppose it also relates to an individuals (or organizations) outlook on morality and ethics. As far as I'm concerned, money is not all that's important in life; it doesn't head the list for me. I also don't think it should be the compass for any diving certification agency.