Today's OW Course

[Teamcasa]

...money is not all that's important in life
... I also don't think it should be the compass for any diving certification agency.

But without it, no agency will survive.

The consumer drives the market and today the market is vacation divers. Many years ago, the market were people who watched Sea Hunt, Jacques Cousteau and wanted to experience the same thing. There was no pressure to certify divers fast and easy.

The current OW/AOW certification are not supposed to make you a great diver. They are designed to keep you alive while diving in a group, lead by a DM, 50 feet deep on a warm water reef in the <vacation spot>. Expecting more is simply not facing reality.

One the plus side, there is still a market for additional training (cave, wreck, tech, photo/video and science divers). This training is sought out after the realization that their original training was insufficient for these activities and a desire to dive more competently.

 

[DCBC]

The consumer drives the market and today the market is vacation divers. Many years ago, the market were people who watched Sea Hunt, Jacques Cousteau and wanted to experience the same thing. There was no pressure to certify divers fast and easy.

The current OW/AOW certification are not supposed to make you a great diver. They are designed to keep you alive while diving in a group, lead by a DM, 50 feet deep on a warm water reef in the <vacation spot>. Expecting more is simply not facing reality.

Whoa there... Instruct an OW course in Canada, take the student for an OW checkout in 36 degree F water with a wet suit and teach him in a similar way as if he was going to be on a warm water reef on a Resort Course?

"Expecting more is simply not facing reality."
What? Clearly one of us has been smoking something, and I don't smoke...

On the plus side, there is still a market for additional training (cave, wreck, tech, photo/video and science divers). This training is sought out after the realization that their original training was insufficient for these activities and a desire to dive more competently.

If you ask me, if you need a DM to babysit them, their training is insufficient. This realization is a forgone conclusion, nothing to think about there... I can't believe that most certified Instructors teach their students not to be independent and safety depends upon a DM in an OW course!

The whole premise of the buddy system is that both divers are competent; they dive together in-case one of them may require assistance and the other can assist them. What good is a buddy if you're both incompetent? BTW, who's looking after the DM? or is it that he's so experienced that he doesn't need a buddy, and can look after several incompetent divers at the same time?

There's a difference between a Resort Course and an OW course; the standards are different. There are by far, more divers certified outside resorts than in them.

 

[Web Monkey]

But without it, no agency will survive.

That wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

There was SCUBA instruction long before plastic cards and certification agencies.

The consumer drives the market and today the market is vacation divers. Many years ago, the market were people who watched Sea Hunt, Jacques Cousteau and wanted to experience the same thing. There was no pressure to certify divers fast and easy.

The current OW/AOW certification are not supposed to make you a great diver. They are designed to keep you alive while diving in a group, lead by a DM, 50 feet deep on a warm water reef in the <vacation spot>. Expecting more is simply not facing reality.

Divers trained to that standard need to be issued "Can dive only with an instructor" cards, not "OK to dive with a buddy in Open Water" cards.

One the plus side, there is still a market for additional training (cave, wreck, tech, photo/video and science divers). This training is sought out after the realization that their original training was insufficient for these activities and a desire to dive more competently.

Divers need to be able to safely jump out of a boat with their buddy and return later, alive and happy, without a DM. They need the OW training they thought they paid for the first time, not technical training.

Terry

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

The current OW/AOW certification are not supposed to make you a great diver. They are designed to keep you alive while diving in a group, lead by a DM, 50 feet deep on a warm water reef in the <vacation spot>. Expecting more is simply not facing reality.

One the plus side, there is still a market for additional training (cave, wreck, tech, photo/video and science divers). This training is sought out after the realization that their original training was insufficient for these activities and a desire to dive more competently.

That is FAR from reality, Dave.

In my neck of the ocean we don't train people to be vacation divers ... period. We train them to be able to dive in the conditions in which they were trained ... Puget Sound. Furthermore, nobody here dives in a group, and we don't HAVE DM's leading people around.

If you can't plan and execute a dive on your own post-OW in conditions similar to those which you trained, then your instructor failed to do his/her job and you didn't get the training you paid for.

That is the reality.

Furthermore, there's a whole ocean of skills and disciplines between warm-water tourists and tech/cave/science diving. It is in this realm that the vast majority of divers reside ... at least where I dive.

I happen to know that's the case where you live too ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Teamcasa]

You said:

...I have seen many training agencies lower their standards....The accident rates apparently haven't increased.

How do you see the current situation when it comes to diver OW certification?

The same thing goes for Instructor standards, many Agencies have decreased these standards over the years. How would increased standards for Instructor certification affect the industry?

I replied:

The consumer drives the market and today the market is vacation divers. Many years ago, the market were people who watched Sea Hunt, Jacques Cousteau and wanted to experience the same thing. There was no pressure to certify divers fast and easy.

The current OW/AOW certification are not supposed to make you a great diver. They are designed to keep you alive while diving in a group, lead by a DM, 50 feet deep on a warm water reef in the <vacation spot>. Expecting more is simply not facing reality.

One the plus side, there is still a market for additional training (cave, wreck, tech, photo/video and science divers). This training is sought out after the realization that their original training was insufficient for these activities and a desire to dive more competently.

You said:

If you ask me, if you need a DM to babysit them, their training is insufficient. This realization is a forgone conclusion, nothing to think about there...
There's a difference between a Resort Course and an OW course; the standards are different. There are by far, more divers certified outside resorts than in them.

...Divers need to be able to safely jump out of a boat with their buddy and return later, alive and happy, without a DM. No technical training. They need the training they thought they paid for the first time.

I the spirt of the original post, this is how I see the current situation when it comes to diver OW certification.

Training needs to be better, that's a given. But the reality is what it is. The major agency's focus their efforts on the vacation oriented divers. That's where the money is and no amount of grousing about it is going to change it. Besides, as DCBC point out, "The accident rates apparently haven't increased." BTW, I have no data to support that point of view, one way or the other.

I have only pointed out that divers that want to be safer and more proficient can, indeed find additional and more competent instruction.

 

[leapfrog]

Divers trained to that standard need to be issued "Can dive only with an instructor" cards, not "OK to dive with a buddy in Open Water" cards.

That card exists, it's called "Scuba Diver" and I agree most people should have this and not the OWD card.

 

[Teamcasa]

That is FAR from reality, Dave.

In my neck of the ocean we don't train people to be vacation divers ... period. We train them to be able to dive in the conditions in which they were trained ... Puget Sound. Furthermore, nobody here dives in a group, and we don't HAVE DM's leading people around.

If you can't plan and execute a dive on your own post-OW in conditions similar to those which you trained, then your instructor failed to do his/her job and you didn't get the training you paid for.

That is the reality.

Furthermore, there's a whole ocean of skills and disciplines between warm-water tourists and tech/cave/science diving. It is in this realm that the vast majority of divers reside ... at least where I dive.

I happen to know that's the case where you live too ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

You are right about your neck of the woods and the training you apparently provide (based on your excellent reputation as an instructor) but - we have all witnessed first hand, basic OW divers that were trained and certified, that have no business diving in the first place. (But somehow survive)

Divers trained here in SoCal - that dive here locally - more often than not, seek additional training. But there are a huge number of divers taking classes everyday that have no desire whatsoever to dive locally. All they want a card so they can go dive on vacation. Do I like it? Nope, but just what can we do? I certainly don't want the government to regulate it.

 

[DCBC]

I the spirt of the original post, this is how I see the current situation when it comes to diver OW certification.

First, I appreciate your input (so don't get me wrong). I did ask for your opinion on the current situation of OW certification, but what you are describing, is not OW certification. PADI calls it "SCUBA Diver" and others Resort Course, etc. it's not OW.

 

[Teamcasa]

That card exists, it's called "Scuba Diver" and I agree most people should have this and not the OWD card.

First, I appreciate your input (so don't get me wrong). I did ask for your opinion on the current situation of OW certification, but what you are describing, is not OW certification. PADI calls it "SCUBA Diver" and others Resort Course, etc. it's not OW.

To this we are in agreement but it is not the case currently and sadly, I don't see it changing anytime soon.

 

[DCBC]

That card exists, it's called "Scuba Diver" and I agree most people should have this and not the OWD card.

Yes, this may well be the solution. I wonder why the LDSs don't run this course as a module, since many of them push them through anyway. The 50 ft depth limit (40 with PADI) shouldn't be a deterrent to the prospective student. It's 60 percent of the OW course and they could make more money....

There sure would be a great call for DMs (which could make the LDS more money). Money, money, money, Wha ha ha ha!