the truth about diving organizations

[crlavoie]

I tend to agree with that Walter, but the reality is it is never going to happen. Besides, the logistics and liability of it wouldn't make it possible ie: Can you imagine if when you called 911 to say your buddy was lost on a dive, having to prove that he/she was trained to do it before they "wasted" manpower looking for them. The land-sharks( lawyers) would have a field day with that.
What I would like to see is the media ostrasize the dumb s**t and make him/her pay for the cost of the rescue operation if they survived, or it comes out of their estate if they don't. The same goes for lost hikers, skiers etc. Make them pay for their stupidity. That would make people think twice. However, accidents do happen, and if it is just that, an accident, then by all means should we help them in the way the system works now.
The system isn't perfect, but it's the best one we have. It allows dive/charter operators to make educated decisions by giving them somewhat of an idea of a divers abilities based on log books and certifications.
BTW, I've been on charters that were rated "advanced" but OW divers were allowed to dive because the DM knew them, and knew their abilities, and didn't require an AOW card. I think that's fine if they want to do it, but they are opening themselves up to liability.
Chris

Yeah, we're on the same page and I could not agree more with your rescue principle. This very debate rages on daily in the climbing community. Ask anyone that's ever been rescued if they would have paid for the service... "I'll take 2 please".

 

[Lead_carrier]

unfortunatly it's a secret and I'm not telling

I guess Nauidiver and I are the only ones that know it's TOP SECRET. If we tell you, we'll have to kill you. Of course, we could give you the first inital and just whip your butt. :11:

It ain't the agency that makes for good dive instruction.

 

[sharky60]

The whole thing is really a money making mess right now...

that pretty much sums it up!!

 

[bradshsi]

I agree with Vtdiver2's comments on rescue. Such insurance for mountain rescue is required in some countries (such as Switzerland) unless you can afford to pay out of your own pocket.

In addition he and I agree that some system is better than a free for all. In some ways the best argument for certification may be that the absence of it would result in many more people dying or being injured.

One point that I think has not been addressed is that a great many of the people on this board are highly motivated, highly trained and experienced, often from the school of hard knocks. (This incidentally is why beginners like myself come here to gain from their knowledge). There is however a tendency to sometimes take their unique experience and extrapolate that to the diving community as a whole.

The problem is they are in the top percentile in terms of ability. The average scuba diver's ability (and I include myself in this group), is far far lower.

So their argument goes that because the expert/high ability divers (for example MikeFerrara who posted earlier) somehow survived bad certification courses and in the process taught himself how to dive properly, all certifications are bad.

For average divers like myself, I am glad that at least some minimum standards for training have been set. The thought of simply strapping tanks onto untrained divers and sending them off to discover depth/narcosis or NDL limits for themselves is a scary thought.

For all the complaints made about the agencies, in all seriousness can we conclude that setting no minimum standards and having a regulatory vacuum would be any better ?

Now to some of the other points

Ahhh but how would you like it if you went to the gas station to get fuel for your chain saw after having a tree fall in your yard and being told you couldn't buy it unless you showed proof of a chain saw certification? Heck, you don't even have to show a drivers license to buy any fuel. You very well could be using it to gas up a plane. So, why should a shop want to see a certification before selling you air? Don't answer, there's no logic to it.

Well there is logic to it but stay with me for a second:

There are approximately 29000 chain saw accidents in the USA every year (the average accident required 110 stitches). So perhaps we should have certification given the lethal nature of the chain saw.... By comparison there were 89 deaths from scuba in 2002 (according to DAN).

You don't have to show a drivers license to buy fuel because it is already assumed that you have a drivers license (and insurance) in place already to drive the automobile to the gas station. Of course you could drive unlicensed/uninsured but they tend to arrest you for that. Incidentally unlicensed/uninsured drivers cause a disproportionately high share of accidents.

Since there is no registration system for scuba equipment (unlike automobiles) it makes sense (if you are going to regulate the activity), to control it using a consumable that most divers need to buy on a regular basis. That train of thought seems perfectly logical to me.

 

[crlavoie]

I agree with Vtdiver2's comments on rescue. Such insurance for mountain rescue is required in some countries (such as Switzerland) unless you can afford to pay out of your own pocket.

In addition he and I agree that some system is better than a free for all. In some ways the best argument for certification may be that the absence of it would result in many more people dying or being injured.




For average divers like myself, I am glad that at least some minimum standards for training have been set. The thought of simply strapping tanks onto untrained divers and sending them off to discover depth/narcosis or NDL limits for themselves is a scary thought.

OK, I realize this is going to sound cold but, why do you care about other people dying or being injured? Again, what about the fat guy sitting on couch, smoking 2 packs a day, eating Taco Bell all day? Who's policing him and protecting him from himself? When was the last time you turned on the nightly news and heard that "health care costs are on the rise again due the alarming increase diver realted deaths and injuries"? I'd say the fat guy owes us some damn money if you ask me.

To your point about training. I too am happy that there are minimum standards for training that we as a community agree on based on the experience of those that sought to push the limits before there was anyone to tell them "you're ok to dive". But certification has nothing to do with training.

 

[Vtdiver2]

OK, I realize this is going to sound cold but, why do you care about other people dying or being injured? Again, what about the fat guy sitting on couch, smoking 2 packs a day, eating Taco Bell all day? Who's policing him and protecting him from himself? When was the last time you turned on the nightly news and heard that "health care costs are on the rise again due the alarming increase diver realted deaths and injuries"? I'd say the fat guy owes us some damn money if you ask me.

To your point about training. I too am happy that there are minimum standards for training that we as a community agree on based on the experience of those that sought to push the limits before there was anyone to tell them "you're ok to dive". But certification has nothing to do with training.

Ok, if certifications and training have nothing to do with each other, how do you utilize it? If I have my certs for deep diving, wreck diving, etc etc, and I want to dive the Andrea Doria, how do I prove to the dive operator that I'm worthy of him taking the liability of allowing me on his boat? All the cert is saying is on Sept 1, 2005, I passed the minimum standards for this TRAINING, which should allow me to dive in this manner. Now, just because I have the certs, doesn't mean anyone is going to allow me to dive the Doria. But, having an up to date log book showing comparable deep, dark dives in current, along with those certs deemed necessary probably would.
It's all about baby steps, building up to harder deeper dives, and certifications are only milestones that show how far you've come, not necessarily "where you are".....as it's your log book that does that.
Chris

 

[H2Andy]

how do I prove to the dive operator that I'm worthy of him taking the liability of allowing me on his boat?

ideally, you'll go diving with his outfit a few times, let the crew see you dive
and evaluate you, and tell the captain "that's a good diver; he's ready for
the Doria."

in the real world, you'll show your c-card, pay your money, and go diving.
hopefully, you won't die.

 

[MikeFerrara]

In addition he and I agree that some system is better than a free for all. In some ways the best argument for certification may be that the absence of it would result in many more people dying or being injured.

I wonder. So many of the people who get hurt diving seem to be people who probably never would have even considered diving if not attracted by the fancy adds, claims of ease and safety and led to believe they are qualified because they baught a certification. On the other hand I know more than a few people who dived before ever getting certified without incident.

One point that I think has not been addressed is that a great many of the people on this board are highly motivated, highly trained and experienced, often from the school of hard knocks. (This incidentally is why beginners like myself come here to gain from their knowledge). There is however a tendency to sometimes take their unique experience and extrapolate that to the diving community as a whole.

The problem is they are in the top percentile in terms of ability. The average scuba diver's ability (and I include myself in this group), is far far lower.

So their argument goes that because the expert/high ability divers (for example MikeFerrara who posted earlier) somehow survived bad certification courses and in the process taught himself how to dive properly, all certifications are bad.

I don't think certifications are bad. They just certify that you completed some class. It's how we use them that I think is bad.

For average divers like myself, I am glad that at least some minimum standards for training have been set. The thought of simply strapping tanks onto untrained divers and sending them off to discover depth/narcosis or NDL limits for themselves is a scary thought.

For all the complaints made about the agencies, in all seriousness can we conclude that setting no minimum standards and having a regulatory vacuum would be any better ?

Now to some of the other points



Well there is logic to it but stay with me for a second:

There are approximately 29000 chain saw accidents in the USA every year (the average accident required 110 stitches). So perhaps we should have certification given the lethal nature of the chain saw.... By comparison there were 89 deaths from scuba in 2002 (according to DAN).

That arguement makes sense if we want some one to d our thinking for us. Personally I use a chain saw several times each week and have never been injured or injured any one else. I would not like being required to buy a certification.

You don't have to show a drivers license to buy fuel because it is already assumed that you have a drivers license (and insurance) in place already to drive the automobile to the gas station. Of course you could drive unlicensed/uninsured but they tend to arrest you for that. Incidentally unlicensed/uninsured drivers cause a disproportionately high share of accidents.

First of all they have no idea what kind of machine you're putting the fuel in if you just fill some gas tanks. Second you don't need a license to drive a car or truck. You need a license to drive on public roads.

Since there is no registration system for scuba equipment (unlike automobiles) it makes sense (if you are going to regulate the activity), to control it using a consumable that most divers need to buy on a regular basis. That train of thought seems perfectly logical to me.

But you don't have to buy breathing gas from a dive shop. You could buy if from any compressed gas supplier and they don't care what you're going to use it for and wo't ask to see any certification. You don't need a certification to buy a compressor or gas mixing equipment either.

In diving the requirement for certification comes from the very people who sell the certification. Contrast that with a drivers license which is required by the government in an effort to control the public road which they are responsible for. They do't sell cars, fuel or teach driving.