The Octopus Conundrum

[danvolker]

... it's also an indication of not being willing to change with the times ... sort of like somebody complaining about how everybody these days listens to music on their iPhone, and how a real music aficionado only uses a reel-to-reel tape player ... which was pretty much the standard back in the '70's ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Hint... Pono https://ponomusic.force.com/ccrz__CCPage?pageKey=aboutus

Or , buy 24 bit 96hz downloads from Homepage | HDtracks - The World's Greatest-Sounding Music Downloads and play them on quality stereos with decent DAC's.
You can even hook up a good DAC to a Samsung Galaxy Note or S5 { Astell&Kern }, and play 24 bit/96 Hz source material into audiophile grade headphones, or hook this to a good stereo and pass it over at full analog 24 bit 96 Hz quality...Still with the advantage of being able to carry your entire music collection around with you...in your phone ( 64 gig or 128 gig card).

Changing with the times can also be typal degeneration of species. ( think Mp3's, think 70's rock being replaced by the NEW disco....then if that NEW times music was not bad enough, then getting with the times led to Rap and Hip hop.!!!&*(())

Diving has it's share of this as well.

 

[Akimbo]

… FWIW - I'd put my skills up against someone who trained with LA County in the '70's ... and for the most part I'd bet that I'd prove to be the more skilled diver. And I've only been diving since 2001 ...

The real question is: would you match your skills after completing your OW training in 2001 to an LA County new grad in the 70s? The problem is what is omitted from the basic Scuba course that basically gives everyone free reign to almost anything you want, regardless of recommended limits.

There were resort courses by the 1970s, which were comparable to OW courses today. From my limited observations and in my opinion, those divers were just as ill-equipped to dive without supervision as the majority of OW grads I see today.

OW training can be decent today given an [-]good[/-] exceptional instructor teaching a motivated and physically-fit swimmer with a good science background. Unfortunately only a tiny minority are fortunate enough to fit that category.

I really don’t consider that my fault. Supposedly they were all taught to perform a CESA and stay within their limits so I feel no obligation to carry extra equipment or gas to accommodate such a remote possibility. I also make an effort to avoid diving around such minimally trained divers.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

It's all relative, Dan ... folks of my parents generation thought 70's rock was trash ... real music was done by people like Sinatra and Martin. "The good ol' days" is a phenomenon we see in most aspects of life. To an older person, the present seldom looks as good as the past, regardless of what you're talking about ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added March 13th, 2015 at 08:57 AM ----------

The real question is: would you match your skills after completing your OW training in 2001 to an LA County new grad in the 70s? The problem is what is omitted from the basic Scuba course that basically gives everyone free reign to almost anything you want, regardless of recommended limits.

Of course not ... but I'll match the training I've received in a comparable number of hours and in-water dives to that received back then. What you guys don't seem to comprehend is that the format of training fundamentally changed ... but that quality of training is still a contract between student and instructor ... just as it was back then. Or are you going to try to convince me that every instructor back in the '70's was a rock star?

FWIW - my OW training was YMCA ... we learned buddy-breathing, as well as quite a few in-water skills you don't see in most of today's OW programs. There are still OW classes out there that teach it ... but the reality is that changes in equipment over the past 45 years have made it pretty much an obsolete skill.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Akimbo]

… Of course not ... but I'll match the training I've received in a comparable number of hours and in-water dives to that received back then. …

I don’t think that is a significant point of contention, possibly beyond training and selection for panic resistance. Example:

… Put those same people in an integrated course that combined OW, AOL, Nitrox, Decompression Procedures, Rescue, and enforce a no-gear swimming test and you produce better divers than the ones turned out 35+ years ago… on average.

I think the major concern is the skill and knowledge difference between a new OW grad versus any of the much longer courses for basic Scuba diving.

… What you guys don't seem to comprehend is that the format of training fundamentally changed ... but that quality of training is still a contract between student and instructor ... just as it was back then…

Just like today, it’s the instructor not the agency. I can’t speak for the 1970s nationwide but teaching diving in the 50s and 60s tended to be more of a labor of love. Instructors were lucky to make gas money, pay for their slightly discounted gear, and the wear and tear on vehicles and dive gear. The earliest attempts to formalize diver training were essentially non-profit, as with the BSAC in the UK.

Informal courses encouraged by dive shops like the one I took were likely hit or miss, but I don’t recall meeting anyone that was ignorant of all the gas laws or with poor watermanship skills. Also, I only recall seeing one diver in the 1960s that was anywhere near obese. Yes, things have changed, some bad and some good.

I absolutely agree that statements that imply anything remotely like “I’m better than you” are irritating as hell whether it comes from an old-timer or a tech diver.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

First, I am a DIR diver, and I had a lot to do with bringing the DIR ideas to the recreational diver world….as such, I often dive on charter boats with many non-skilled divers, and I do utilize all of my DIR gear and ideas, though do not preach or sip cool-aid on the boat  I also do plenty of very advanced dives, using DIR, on boats catering to advanced divers, and where our choice in boat has eliminated pretty much anyone from being in the water WITH us, that we would see as inherently dangerous, from a distinct lack of skill.


Within the context of this SOLO thread, I believe that if it is your intention to do a solo dive, it IS appropriate for you to gear optimally for your solo excursion….If this means using vintage style gear, with a single reg, I think this is fine, as your solo plans are not a secret on the dive boat…

The only area of contention I see, is what happens if you come across a poorly skilled diver, that was not in any plan to be anywhere near you—but now here they are, and they are OOA. To me, this is like a pedestrian coming across a stranger on the street that just this second, had a heart attack. If you know CPR, and if you are what I think is a moral person, you will feel compelled to attempt CPR on this person ( provided they don’t look like they are infected with ebola or other life threatening and clearly manifesting illness, and providing they don’t look like a terrorist or a mortal enemy).

As a solo diver, you should be advanced, hence the solo designation. It should be easy for you to render air share via buddy breathing---the real issue is will you get the reg back from the OOA diver, after you offer it. Now you get to your determination of what you can handle, as a good Samaritan, without putting your life in danger.
If you are at 60 feet, and a decent freediver, you take a huge breath, pass the reg, and wait for the eyes to go back in to focus, and for the diver to pass you back the reg…if there is little chance it is going to come back to you, you’ll have to be ready to ditch your bc, and do a free ascent, leaving the diver with your bc and air. If you don’t think you can make it to the surface, if this diver freaks, then you have a real issue as to whether you dare attempt buddy breathing with them.

This scenario is one reason for the octopus to be valid, if you don’t want to either risk your life, or the life of an OOA stranger. If you limit yourself to advanced dive boats that shun poor divers ( the good boats), then perhaps you can forget the octo, as any OOA diver must have suffered a reg explosion, and should have basic buddy breathing skills. Or, you can brush up on your free ascents, and plan the possibility of donating your whole tank and bc…..or, plan on watching a diver drown, and then having to live with that the rest of your life—but you stayed safe and solo.

If I decide to dive with a vintage scuba setup and be solo, it would only be on an advanced boat….and I really don’t mind giving up my tank and reg and free ascending—if the diver will not give the reg back. I’d not expect this to happen on an advanced boat, but that is the risk taken, and the solution to me.
Normally, it is way easier to just dive my DIR gear….If I am diving with DIR buddies, but then I take a solo excursion 100 yards away from Sandra and Bill, if I run into an OOA diver, handling them with long hose and necklace reg will be simple, with no risks I can imagine.

You have to ask yourself, how do divers run OOA in the first place?
Other than a complete reg failure that leads to a freeflow that empties a tank, how do divers run out of air?
My guess is that they don't pay attention, and second may be that they are using one of those remote HP transducers with a wireless computer and one of the batteries fails. My first thought is that they didn't pay attention, which is probably 99% of the time why people run OOA.
They also may have no idea about how big a tank they really need and have no knowledge about gas planning and how much they need to complete their rise to the top with a stop in there somewhere and be back on the boat with a few hundred PSI.
The one thing that is different from your analogy about the person having a heart attack in the street is that person is just living their normal daily life. The diver on the other hand made a concious decision to drive to the boat, get on the boat, and get in the water, which is a far cry from just crossing the street in everyday life.
Asside from an equipment failure, running OOA is the silliest thing a person can do. That's what a frikin' pressure gauge is for!
It's the most irresponsible thing a diver can do and I see no excuse for it.
Back when the SPG first became in regular use they figured there would be no way a person could run out because they essentially had a gas gauge.
But now it seems I always see talk about OOA, what if, what if, there are all kinds of threads on the subject on SB, why??? They have an F'ing pressure gauge and a timer! They should be looking at them!! What the hell are they doing!!!
When was the last time you ran out of gas in your car? For me I can say never... honestly, it's never happened.
At least with a car you just roll to the side of the road and start walking.

So bringing this all the way around, I understand the good semaritan thing and if I was approached by an OOA diver yes I would try and save them (to a point), but to be put in danger by some schmuck that can't keep track enough to manage his/her supply then come up to someone grabbing and clawing just seems very unbalanced to me. They shouldn't be on the boat in the first place if they're that incompetent being that it's a luxury elective activity. How is it my fault that they slept through that part in class? And give them my rig? uhhh,... no.

If perhaps someday I was to go somewhere warm with good visiblity and save up the time and money to be able to do this for myself and found a boat that would allow me to dive a complete minimalist configuration solo, I would be a little chapped if I suddenly had to change my rig to accomodate the lowest common denominator.
And because I feel this strongly about it, I dive solo.

 

[Nemrod]

I think people confuse solo with diving loosely in a group of divers with no specific buddy. Probably a common practice as I have observed but not ideal . In such a case I would feel compelled to be able to share air. But solo, I am sorry, I may or may not see another diver and even if I do, they are not people I know. Yes, if I came upon somebody in need, I think I could buddy breath with them, yes I would provide assistance but I am not going to compromise my diving rig, style or needs for some hypothetical circumstance that is not going to happen, less likely than my loosing my air from a free flow on an unneeded octopus. I think having to assist a stranger I come across during a solo dive to be quite unlikely. N

N

 

[DaleC]

Nem, that's how I feel. True solo, all bets off. Diving alone in a mixed skills group, there is a chance I may need to render aid. Judgement is the key.

Eric, I think it is your refusal to accept reality that puts you at risk.
People will occasionally go OOA. As distasteful as that is it is really ultimately beyond our control.
From that point forward the only question is: what will you be prepared do about it.
You can either attempt to render aid in the fashion they are trained to expect (an octo), maximizing the best chance for a successful outcome or...
Insist they conform to your personal world view of dive training (you are probably the first person they have ever met who thinks this way) and attempt to buddy breath with them.
Yes, they will probably fight and claw you. They may rip off your mask and you may have to punch them as they are suffocating underwater. They will probably bolt and perhaps embolize... because you are grabbing back that reg you just gave them and they don't know what you are doing.
Their error is going OOA. Your error is believing they should have a skill they simply are not taught today.

Your beef is with the training agencies, not the poor schmuck who has no clue what he should or shouldn't have been taught. Drowning is not the best time to first bring up the subject.

 

[scubadada]

Personally, I found much of this thread an interesting read and thought provoking

The real question is: would you match your skills after completing your OW training in 2001 to an LA County new grad in the 70s? The problem is what is omitted from the basic Scuba course that basically gives everyone free reign to almost anything you want, regardless of recommended limits.

Of course not ... but I'll match the training I've received in a comparable number of hours and in-water dives to that received back then.

So, the main difference is what you came out with after OW training. I came out of my LA County Basic Scuba Diver course with the skills to be an independent diver under the usual conditions in Southern California, and did so. Much later, late 90s, I recertified with my son in the PADI system. Preparedness following OW certification was considerably less than my initial certification. Ultimately, I did AOW, Rescue, and a few specialties. Altogether, my PADI training was quite good, though I would imagine only a small fraction of divers stick to it this long and achieve this level of training. Either pathway is able to produce well trained, competent divers

You have to ask yourself, how do divers run OOA in the first place?
Other than a complete reg failure that leads to a freeflow that empties a tank, how do divers run out of air?
My guess is that they don't pay attention, and second may be that they are using one of those remote HP transducers with a wireless computer and one of the batteries fails.

I have been diving an Oceanic VT3 hoseless AI computer as my primary since 2010. Before buying a backup computer and a SPG, a computer or transmitter failure would have simply ended my dive, the risk of going OOA would have been negligible. I bought a backup computer and SPG in 2011 so that a primary computer or transmitter failure would not end my dive or require an alternative to continue a series of dives. I have about 500 dives on the VT3 and about 400 dives on the Geo2 and have never needed the backup, but have it nevertheless, just in case.

True solo, all bets off. Diving alone in a mixed skills group, there is a chance I may need to render aid.

I do the vast majority of my diving solo, but, do occasionally dive with others, usually people I do not know or do not know well. I've been diving with an Air2 since 2002 and discuss possible air sharing with those I'm about to dive with. Though I practice with it, I've never had to use the Air2 myself nor have I had to share air, but I could.

And, of course, for other than shallow solo dives, I have my slung pony.

Good diving, Craig

 

[mick allein III]

I agree this has been a very good thread. I often dive solo with an air 2 and always with a slung 40cf. Might have a 19cf but the difference between the 19 and 40 when I dive seems negligible. I can't really notice a major difference. Although I'm confident that the 19cf woul get me to the surface, I opt for more air.


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[Nemrod]

I have had a life long phobia, two of them, one of them is wasps and the other is anything touching or pressing on my chest or neck or restricting my airflow even slightly. Thus both necklaced regulators and any type of BC that covers my chest, cummerbunds, chest straps, even wetsuits, anything that touches or pushes or compresses even slightly on my chest or neck gets a REACTION from me right away. If I am prepared for it in advance I can tolerate it to an extent thus I am able to use a necklaced regulator as long as it does not touch my neck or even a horse collar BC (not ideal) under some conditions. As well, anything that restricts my airflow and for me it is exhalation back pressure that sets off the phobic response for lack of a better term. Most regulators, quite a few well thought of regulators, I spit them out right away and call no go. If I feel back pressure it is a no go for me.

Therefore, this year, after having tolerated a necklaced secondary (with a pull free slip knot) for OOAS I have never liked it. I have decided to try something different. My primary regs are a Titan XL Supreme set, a fleet of Conshelf XIVs and Supreme, A SP R109/MkV set and two VDH Argonaut Krakens and two PRAMs. I have dove all of these with a necklaced secondary, the Titan XL and the SP109/MkV sets are long hose rigs. Long hoses (wrapped 60/72 inch hoses) do not work with a double hose like my Kraken/PRAMs but I use a 40 inch hose under my arm and necklaced for air sharing with them when buddy diving.

I am thinking I am going to go ahead and purchase an integrated inflator mechanism of some type for air sharing and dispense with the necklaced secondary. I think it will not decrease reliability when solo and offer some ability to share air when buddy diving. If I am on my single hose rigs I will donate the primary and I will take the integrated mechanism. If I am double hose, the OOA diver will have to take the integrated inflator. Still mulling this over. I may just have to buy one before I can settle it out. I will have to install a longer corrugated hose on my wings, hmmmm.

I guess my camera will just have to get accustomed to the pony for when I need a redundant supply but do not want doubles. Most of the beach dives I do are way too long of a walk for doubles of any sort but I could manage a pony bottle I think.

I am just incoherently rambling, I know.

N