The Octopus Conundrum

[scubadada]

I keep reading this claim ... but some of the old fogeys I've dived with haven't turned out to be very good divers ... especially if you were expecting them to be a dive buddy. Had one fellow who spent hours telling me how much better the training was back in the '60's ... when he first started diving. The dude looked like a rototiller underwater ... and during the entire dive he never even looked at me once. I spent the whole dive essentially chasing him. That's not my idea of "quality" ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Point well taken, an individual judgement

 

[Akimbo]

I keep reading this claim ... but some of the old fogeys I've dived with haven't turned out to be very good divers ... especially if you were expecting them to be a dive buddy…

In general, divers were trained to be much more self-sufficient than buddy dependent then. Scuba 101 was on the order of 6 classroom sessions about 2 hours each, 6 pool sessions, and 6 days of diving usually including snorkeling/freediving and two tanks per day. Self-sufficiency training included real swim tests without gear, freediving (snorkeling), free ascents, mild harassment dives, buddy breathing, and sometimes bare-valve breathing. That instilled a lot of self-confidence that made panic a pretty rare event.

Physics and physiology training was also much more rigorous. It included decompression diving with repeds, “estimating” air supplies before SPGs were common, learning and applying all the gas laws by name, and pretty blunt language on the personal cost of making an error. Oxygen toxicity (pre-O2 clock), practical effects of partial pressure (pre-Nitrox but touching on HeO2), pretty complete coverage of all phases of Nitrogen Narcosis, recompression treatment, and a fair dabbling of history for perspective.

Many of us also learned about pure O2 rebreathers. Buoyancy and Archimedes principal were covered for really basic salvage as well as dealing with not having a BC. Trim was something that divers worked out on their own if they weren’t comfortable and “leaving only bubbles” was a concept that was 30-40 years in the future. Everyone saw the inside of regulators and understood how they work, practiced basic rescue skills, and learned a lot about coastal currents since very few divers had the luxury of a boat.

All this resulted in a much greater tendency to become a same-ocean buddy or solo diver, especially on the West Coast of the US where kelp and lower vis is a factor compared to Florida. Diving on the Northeast Coast of the US was relatively retarded in these early days due to thermal protection limits and less predictable seas. You had to be relatively hard-core, had far fewer diveable days, and often needed a boat for the BIG diving asset… wrecks.

So, were divers better trained when classes were much longer and equipment was not nearly as helpful? Sure in many ways, especially panic resistance. Do they have the same sensibilities of diver today? Not unless they developed them along the way. Were they fundamentally better? Hell no, given similar training time and rigor — with the possible exception of the average age entering the sport.

There is much more opportunity for additional dive training now. In fact, the only options then were join the Navy and hope you get accepted into a diving program or sign up for a commercial diving school. The problem now is the great majority of divers don’t get any additional training past OW. It is common for them to have horrible buoyancy skills because far too many instructors grossly overweight them and don’t teach the basic principal. On average, new OW divers don’t swim very well and have very little confidence in their skills.

So what is a reasonable comparison today? I think it is fair to say ATBE, more academic and practical training is “better” than less. Put those same people in an integrated course that combined OW, AOL, Nitrox, Decompression Procedures, Rescue, and enforce a no-gear swimming test and you produce better divers than the ones turned out 35+ years ago… on average.

 

[DaleC]

As long as diver that is diving solo...be it Eric, or me, or you, has the skills to do AIR SHARE with a single reg, and the diver that needs the donation is marginally competent as an advanced diver--the kind of diver that belongs on a charter boat doing some fairly challenging and advanced recreational dives....sharing the single reg just means a tiny bit of skip breathing, and a decision that the dive is over, and at least one person will be holding on to the other and controlling the air share---probably the one that is worse at skip breathing

I also know how to buddy breath and use a J valve and dive without a BC but I think people are delusional to imagine buddy breathing is part of the consciousness of the modern diver. It isn't. Woulda, shoulda, coulda doesn't change that fact. To try to insist upon it's use in a mixed setting is to be situationally unaware, or worse. To use the term as it was originally intended it's a bit of ego strokery for some diver to blow his horn about how awesome he is because he can BB and how wimpy today's diver is by comparison. Your skills are what they are - and people just aren't trained to be competent in BB nowadays. That's called reality. So if you are going to buddy with someone whom you know is not an older era diver, you should play the part and be ready to donate a reg, spend the time to teach them how to BB (which takes time) or bow out and let someone else do the job.

But what I really objected to was the notion that someone is a worry wort for wanting to ensure their buddies kit is in order. It's another form of strokery that suggests a lack of courage or manliness for following SOP's taught during training. We just had a thread in basic scuba about the normalization of deviation and that's how it starts. I can relate multiple instances where I have asked a buddy if they are squared away and ready to go and they say yes - only to then have me untrap their octo which they were completely unaware of. Again, that's my octo-not yours.

I say, if you are going to wear an octo and pretend to be someone's buddy you should play the part. If both are comfortable being autonomous units cool; I do that lot's of times. But if someone is following their pre-dive plan (which should include a buddy check) and it is suggested they are being a worry wort for doing, I call foul.

 

[Akimbo]

Dale:

True, buddy breathing isn’t my first choice either. However the probability of me running into someone OOA while I am diving solo is remote enough that I accept the compromise.

 

[DaleC]

Dale:

True, buddy breathing isn’t my first choice either. However the probability of me running into someone OOA while I am diving solo is remote enough that I accept the compromise.

Yes, I accept that. Usually I solo dive when I am really the only person around, above or below the water. I like obscure settings.

But, how about this scenario. Last weekend I dove on a boat with six other divers, three buddy teams and me. Technically I was diving solo but I knew there were six other divers in the general vicinity with me, two I know well, two I know socially and two I had never met before. Yet all of them would have certain expectations of me (unless explicitly expressed beforehand) if they met me underwater in a crisis. They would expect:

1. That I would be prepared to render aid if I could and not to ignore or abandon them.
2. That I would understand the hand sign for out of air.
3. That I would be able to donate a working reg in a reasonably short period of time.

 

[Akimbo]

Dale:

Chances are still pretty remote that anyone will be OOA and closer to me than their buddy. However, I’m a hard-ass not an OOA angel.

These days I mostly dive doubles for progressive equalization in cold water. That leaves me with a backup regulator but it still has a short hose. I would much rather have some unknown OOA diver forced to hang onto me to prevent my donated second stage from getting yanked out of their mouth. I want them looking in my eyes, glued to my harness, and knowing deep in their soul that I will close that valve if they don’t behave.

 

[danvolker]

I also know how to buddy breath and use a J valve and dive without a BC but I think people are delusional to imagine buddy breathing is part of the consciousness of the modern diver. It isn't. Woulda, shoulda, coulda doesn't change that fact. To try to insist upon it's use in a mixed setting is to be situationally unaware, or worse. To use the term as it was originally intended it's a bit of ego strokery for some diver to blow his horn about how awesome he is because he can BB and how wimpy today's diver is by comparison. Your skills are what they are - and people just aren't trained to be competent in BB nowadays. That's called reality. So if you are going to buddy with someone whom you know is not an older era diver, you should play the part and be ready to donate a reg, spend the time to teach them how to BB (which takes time) or bow out and let someone else do the job.

But what I really objected to was the notion that someone is a worry wort for wanting to ensure their buddies kit is in order. It's another form of strokery that suggests a lack of courage or manliness for following SOP's taught during training. We just had a thread in basic scuba about the normalization of deviation and that's how it starts. I can relate multiple instances where I have asked a buddy if they are squared away and ready to go and they say yes - only to then have me untrap their octo which they were completely unaware of. Again, that's my octo-not yours.

I say, if you are going to wear an octo and pretend to be someone's buddy you should play the part. If both are comfortable being autonomous units cool; I do that lot's of times. But if someone is following their pre-dive plan (which should include a buddy check) and it is suggested they are being a worry wort for doing, I call foul.

Dale,
I honestly believe that everyone in my NAUI class back in 1972 found the buddy breathing drills to be ridiculously easy.,,,,It was not even really a skill to learn...it was like someone said, step forward with your right foot, and then after, step forward with your left foot....Of all the skills, this one was among the easiest.....I think there may have been classes run where there were people that had trouble with the buddy breathing, but those same people would likely have flunked out of the class from the harassment drills or the ditch and don....so they never would have the chance to have a problem with buddy breathing in the ocean for real.

I would not be surprised to learn that this is about how you are wired...Remember back in high school, how some kids were naturally able to catch a football with ease...they were natural wide receivers....and there were also kids that had stone hands---they could not catch no matter what. I think that today, because the industry tries to push so many different kinds of people into diving...that EVERYONE IS MADE TO BE A DIVER TODAY, provided they have a credit card....there are people that are not wired to buddy breathe, and there is no harassment or ditch and don, or serious swim test, or need to snorkel down 30 feet to the bottom to pick up a rock as proof....with none of these barriers to improperly wired "natural" divers, there are people that get certified today that would be "challenged" to do a real air share with a single reg...

However, I think you can often spot these divers...they don't look natural....and they don't progress like they should. And it was for these divers, and the lack of the exclusionary barriers of the 70's, that PADI and NAUI and the other agencies, must have decided that the octopus would need to become standard gear.... I still remember the shock of hearing the news some time in the 80's, that "Buddy breathing" would no longer be taught....it was amazing to all my dive friends.

What I am saying, is that I believe if you find a population today of "real divers"..naturals, that you see as locals on a charter boat that caters only to advanced divers, boats with no time for pampering students or new divers ( we have several boats like this in Palm Beach..and I'm sure there are many other places with boats like this) ...then the divers on these boats could do a buddy breathing share as easily today as putting their right foot forward on command....there is just no skill to it....Those that find it hard, have issues with being underwater or panic....they are not wired the same.....

I don't think being able to buddy breathe easily is any thing to be proud of...any more than being able to walk or run....I feel sorry for those that aren't wired to do it, and I guess I am happy for them that the octopus was a functional workaround for them.
You are quite right that the modern diver may not have any sense of buddy breathing....which is why you need to really know your buddies, and why if you are in a group of strangers, you might need to expect that many have zero skills for anything....Avoiding the poorly wired with bad skills, is one thing that can keep us off of many boats.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I think a safe second or octopus is a very smart piece of equipment to have on most any recreational dive for most any recreational diver. However, discontinuing to teach buddy breathing is very dumb.

It is easy, it teaches confidence and it may actually have value in an emergency. What if the octopus which is passed off is cracked or leaking or full of sand? Now what.. you die?

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I want to address this notion. Yeah... I'm sure as an unknown diver you are gods gift to diving but that second reg you are packing is for me, not you. It's my regulator and reserve gas so I don't think I'm being a worry wart to want to ensure it's both functional and deployable. I will extend the same consideration by demonstrating both to you pre-dive.

Solo diving does not need to mean an erosion or mocking of solid buddy skills.

And that Sir, is EXACTLY why I solo dive.
My air, my tank, my gear, I bought it, I'm in charge of it. If you think you are going to mug me for my air and put me in danger because you don't know how to calculate air usage, keep your stuff up to snuff, or you buy second or third tier equipment, and or forget to look at your SPG or use some silly battery operated remote SPG and it fails, and you think you own my air supply to cover for your incompetency you have another thing coming.
You want air? you come up and ask nicely, and you better know how to buddy breathe. None of this 3 breaths then 4 breaths then 5 breaths...
If this was DIR in a cave that's different, we are all on the same page and know the rules going in, and your buddy IS part of your equipment. Those protocols are trained into the system.
But in my Norcal world anybody I dive with now (and I have them down to very few) knows we are essentially solo divers that just happen to be diving side by side.
I am NOT responsible for your life, and I happen to think this is why solo diving has become so popular lately.

---------- Post added March 12th, 2015 at 09:25 PM ----------

Dale,
I honestly believe that everyone in my NAUI class back in 1972 found the buddy breathing drills to be ridiculously easy.,,,,It was not even really a skill to learn...it was like someone said, step forward with your right foot, and then after, step forward with your left foot....Of all the skills, this one was among the easiest.....I think there may have been classes run where there were people that had trouble with the buddy breathing, but those same people would likely have flunked out of the class from the harassment drills or the ditch and don....so they never would have the chance to have a problem with buddy breathing in the ocean for real.

I would not be surprised to learn that this is about how you are wired...Remember back in high school, how some kids were naturally able to catch a football with ease...they were natural wide receivers....and there were also kids that had stone hands---they could not catch no matter what. I think that today, because the industry tries to push so many different kinds of people into diving...that EVERYONE IS MADE TO BE A DIVER TODAY, provided they have a credit card....there are people that are not wired to buddy breathe, and there is no harassment or ditch and don, or serious swim test, or need to snorkel down 30 feet to the bottom to pick up a rock as proof....with none of these barriers to improperly wired "natural" divers, there are people that get certified today that would be "challenged" to do a real air share with a single reg...

However, I think you can often spot these divers...they don't look natural....and they don't progress like they should. And it was for these divers, and the lack of the exclusionary barriers of the 70's, that PADI and NAUI and the other agencies, must have decided that the octopus would need to become standard gear.... I still remember the shock of hearing the news some time in the 80's, that "Buddy breathing" would no longer be taught....it was amazing to all my dive friends.

What I am saying, is that I believe if you find a population today of "real divers"..naturals, that you see as locals on a charter boat that caters only to advanced divers, boats with no time for pampering students or new divers ( we have several boats like this in Palm Beach..and I'm sure there are many other places with boats like this) ...then the divers on these boats could do a buddy breathing share as easily today as putting their right foot forward on command....there is just no skill to it....Those that find it hard, have issues with being underwater or panic....they are not wired the same.....

I don't think being able to buddy breathe easily is any thing to be proud of...any more than being able to walk or run....I feel sorry for those that aren't wired to do it, and I guess I am happy for them that the octopus was a functional workaround for them.
You are quite right that the modern diver may not have any sense of buddy breathing....which is why you need to really know your buddies, and why if you are in a group of strangers, you might need to expect that many have zero skills for anything....Avoiding the poorly wired with bad skills, is one thing that can keep us off of many boats.

I've run into divers that can't even remove and reinsert a regulator without getting stressed, let alone switch to another one, or god forbid buddy breathe, they'd be dead.

---------- Post added March 12th, 2015 at 10:30 PM ----------

If I'm diving single tank lately, I'm in the 'single 2nd stage on a 22" hose and necklaced' camp, simply because I'm zipping around relatively shallow sites solo on a DPV. No need to worry about sharing air and an additional 2nd stage would either free flow easily as I zoom about or require the kind of in-line shutoffs I put on ponies/BO/deco bottles.

What I really need to do is get rid of my wing and LPI hose, taking the 1st stage down to one LP hose and one HP hose for the SPG, just to see the DM reactions.

You could take it one step further, get rid of the SPG and just run a single second, That would really freak them out.

 

[DaleC]

I guess it comes down to accepting the world as it really is, wishing it were the way it was, or rejecting it and making up your own rules.

The thread is about "do you carry an octo on your solo rig or not". There are a few options:

1. You can only rig for yourself, and if you don't dive around others that's fine. I do it. In that case-no octo needed.

2. You can self select so that you only dive around like minded divers who understand and accept your style. In that case-no octo needed.

3. You can dive with different groups of divers and demand they all bend to your personal worldview of air sharing and screw them if they can't. In that case-no octo needed.

4. You can accept that many of those divers probably don't have that skill and configure yourself in a way that best maximizes their chance of surviving a crisis. In that case-octo needed. How long the hose is or whether it comes from a pony or a set of twins doesn't really matter as long as it's functional.

I dive with many sorts of divers, new, old, skilled, still learning, solo oriented, team oriented, even one who's only 14, so my default is to use an octo of some sort unless I know different. I solo dive but I'm not anti social and I just don't want to be the guy who contributes to someone else's demise because they have no clue what I'm doing when they are OOA at depth and looking for help. The key words being: They have no idea what I'm doing when they are looking for help...