Thank heavens for PADI

[gj62]

RiverRat - did you ask your instructor to help you with your bouyancy skills, since you knew you needed it? Why was peak performance a waste?

 

[RiverRat]

RiverRat - did you ask your instructor to help you with your bouyancy skills, since you knew you needed it? Why was peak performance a waste?

To be honest, at that level of training I didn't fully understand the details or concept of getting weighted to be at, or near, neutral buoyancy. I only understood that with 28# on my belt I was able to hold a safety stop. My trim was way off but I now understand that was due to not having a weight integrated BC. You don't know what you don't know. If I had known what questions to ask at the time I would have. Don't forget there was a million other tasks to learn not just weighting/trim. It wasn't until I researched the BP/W here on SB that I read a doc on neutral weighting by FredT that really opened my eyes to the whole concept. I then knew my trim was shot as the 28# on the belt was "counteracting" the inherant positive buoyancy of the crappy jacket style BC I was in (rental). That's when I decided to throw a fairly heavy backplate on to get the weight over my buoyant lungs. Improved my trim big time. I say the Peak Performance Buoyancy class was a waste as why swim through underwater hula hoops with your legs practically dragging along the bottom? I got "stuck" twice (tank valve etc.)
Don't get me wrong, not totally worthless, but in the wrong order. If I took the course now I would breeze throught it.
So maybe now it would be worthless now too?
It's like taking someone out on a hunting trip without teaching them good marksmanship first.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Controlling position in the water and propelling yourself around IS diving. When you sign up for classes that's what you're asking to be taught. Since diving is 95% swimming around neutral it only stands to reason that a class should include some practice and coaching on that.

The fact that no OW standards that I know of require that the mechanics of balance and trim be taught disgusts me to no end. That needs to be discussed prior to even getting in the water, IMO and experience.

Learing skills on the bottom without progressing to doing them midwater is a waste of time and proves nothing.

If an instructor takes a few minutes to get a student balanced and work on body position it pays off big time. Once they can control themselves in the water everything else the student needs to learn comes so much easier.

I mentioned body position because it goes along with weight positioning (balance) to achieve trim. We spend a few minutes working on it on a floor without water. That saves tons of time in the water. We start work on finning technique the same way.

When I can I video students so they can see how they look.

My class isn't much longer than others yet the class doesn't silt the place out, I'm not a nervous wreck and the class hovers comfortably at a safety stop.

Is every one perfect in the water like a cave diver? No, but they look better than many who have been diving for years practicing the same wrong thing over and over.

Being able to share air on the bottom means nothing and I'll tell you that there aren't many re3creational divers that can do a decent job of it midwater while holding depth and position. I know because it's part of the preassesment I give before starting some one in a new class and even instructors that come to me for an Advanced nitrox class are often a real mess.

I hope this didn't sound like bragging about my class because I really don't even want to teach OW much any more. It's that this all seems so simple and obvious that I can't imagin why it's so hard to get accross to people especially the agencies.

At the same time I remember when I first started teaching and like a new diver I didn't know what I didn't know and did it like they taught me.

After 6 hours in the pool we'd go to OW and one student would be going up while another was going down. I was afraid to stop the group because I knew they'd loose it. Eventualy I started to think that something didn't make sense and I started playing with things. At the same time I kept progressing in my own diving and eventually found some of the simple but very important pieces that I was missing.

Looking back on my dive career it's amazing that I didn't 1, get killed or 2 get a student killed. And I did it exactly as I was taught. BTW, my first student was a family member.

IMO, the whole design of the class is wrong, the priorities are wrong and the frequent result is poor divers who don't even know enough to improve. The agencies don't get it and if they do they aren't sharing.

ok, that was a rant and a half.

 

[MikeFerrara]

AOW...

Divers crawl on the bottom through a nav course.
Sit on the bottom and tie knots for a S&R dive
Kneel on the bottom at 60 ft for a deep dive

But...they're often not taught the skills that were glossed over in OW and were told that they'd get with practice or in the AOW or PPB nor is it a requirement.

No sense in doing all this junk if you can't swim horizontally while breathing and you're only a couple classes from being an instructor.
It's tourist stuff not diving.

Funny story...
A few years ago I had a rescue class and the vis in this lake was the best i'd ever seen it. You could see forever. It was incredible.

The students needed to do a search for a fake victem and we did a circular search with a rope. In short order the whole place was silted out. The students swam right past the object they were looking for I don't know how many time but they didn't see it. When we surfaced to talk about the excersize one student asked what was wrong with the vis and asked how we could stand diving someplace like that. It took me a while to gently tell her that she was what was wrong with the vis.

well I'm rambling again.

 

[NEWreckDiver]

AOW...

Divers crawl on the bottom through a nav course.
Sit on the bottom and tie knots for a S&R dive
Kneel on the bottom at 60 ft for a deep dive

But...they're often not taught the skills that were glossed over in OW and were told that they'd get with practice or in the AOW or PPB nor is it a requirement.

No sense in doing all this junk if you can't swim horizontally while breathing and you're only a couple classes from being an instructor.
It's tourist stuff not diving.

Funny story...
A few years ago I had a rescue class and the vis in this lake was the best i'd ever seen it. You could see forever. It was incredible.

The students needed to do a search for a fake victem and we did a circular search with a rope. In short order the whole place was silted out. The students swam right past the object they were looking for I don't know how many time but they didn't see it. When we surfaced to talk about the excersize one student asked what was wrong with the vis and asked how we could stand diving someplace like that. It took me a while to gently tell her that she was what was wrong with the vis.

well I'm rambling again.

I did not read this entire thread, just your last couple of post here. You were the instructor, did you teach them their buoyancy skills?

 

[MikeFerrara]

I did not read this entire thread, just your last couple of post here. You were the instructor, did you teach them their buoyancy skills?

Are you asking about the rescue class? I was the instructor for the rescue class but I wasn't the divers instructor for her OW or AOW.

The rest was a general description of the classes that I see every trip to the local training sites, not a description of how I do it.

In fact I ended up on the phone with PADI once after watching an AOW S&R dive where the instructor had the students SIT on a training platform to tie their underwater knots. I was told that it was within standards. I just don't see the point. Do you?

You see there isn't much in the way of buoyancy control requirements in the AOW course. The skills that often aren't taught in OW aren't required in other courses either.

In order to get an AOW class knocked off in a weekend (typical) for a diver who wasn't taught this stuff in OW they need to let them be pretty sloppy and standards allow it.

In addition, the instructor isn't even required to be in the water for most of the dives. The nav dive for instance. I often see instructors standing on the dock while 2 students navigate the patterns

 

[Hoppy]

You see there isn't much in the way of buoyancy control requirements in the AOW course. The skills that often aren't taught in OW aren't required in other courses either.

I agree wholeheartedly here, the whole "trim" thing was just not gone through enough with me in OW, not at all in AOW. I did a PBB and found it useful but I have to say I think I've picked up more on trim etc through this board than any formal instruction. All this is of course with the benefit of 20 20 hindsight.

I do dive now for pleasure with a cpl of (IMHO) great Instructors and as friends they have worked on it with me. I do know that they too place extra emphasis on it in OW teaching.

Same old point really I suppose it comes down to the Instructor going the extra mile for students.

just my 2 pennies worth

 

[NEWreckDiver]

Are you asking about the rescue class? I was the instructor for the rescue class but I wasn't the divers instructor for her OW or AOW.

The rest was a general description of the classes that I see every trip to the local training sites, not a description of how I do it.

In fact I ended up on the phone with PADI once after watching an AOW S&R dive where the instructor had the students SIT on a training platform to tie their underwater knots. I was told that it was within standards. I just don't see the point. Do you?

You see there isn't much in the way of buoyancy control requirements in the AOW course. The skills that often aren't taught in OW aren't required in other courses either.

In order to get an AOW class knocked off in a weekend (typical) for a diver who wasn't taught this stuff in OW they need to let them be pretty sloppy and standards allow it.

In addition, the instructor isn't even required to be in the water for most of the dives. The nav dive for instance. I often see instructors standing on the dock while 2 students navigate the patterns

I was asking about the AOW class, but I see that the Rescue class had the same problem. Did you not go into the Bouyancy skills with the Rescue class? The reason I ask is I want to know what you did different during your classes to address bouyancy skills?

I do aggree with you that more time should be spent by more instructors on bouyancy skills. As a DM I see this problem all the time.

I have never known an instuctor to let the students go into the water by themselves for a required dive. I hope you just happen to be around a bunch of bad instuctors out there. I really haven't seen that even once.

 

[gj62]

Mike, I agree with you that trim isn't taught, and probably should be to some degree. Bouyancy ideas are introduced and good instructors with willing students often turn out good newbie divers. However, a few specific statements I must comment on...

But...they're often not taught the skills that were glossed over in OW and were told that they'd get with practice or in the AOW or PPB nor is it a requirement.

It's tourist stuff not diving.

That's what the agencies are training - tourist divers - not technical divers, not advanced S&R divers, but tourists that want to experience the underwater realm. I see nothing wrong with that. For those that want more, other agencies have begun to fill that niche (GUE, for example).

I hope this didn't sound like bragging about my class because I really don't even want to teach OW much any more. It's that this all seems so simple and obvious that I can't imagin why it's so hard to get accross to people especially the agencies.

If you don't want to, you shouldn't. You may be the best diver ever, and once maybe you were a darn fine instructor, but if your heart isn't in it, at some point your head won't be either, and that's not fair to your students. (You still may be "better" than some, but as I said before, there is no "instructor skill check" done by the agencies, which I think is a shame).

Looking back on my dive career it's amazing that I didn't 1, get killed or 2 get a student killed. And I did it exactly as I was taught.

I disagree. Many on this board (I think you included) dove long before they were certified. Were it truely amazing, we would have a much more dangerous sport on our hands. There are a handful of key concepts that you need to know to safely explore and enjoy diving. Mastering skills and being aware is part of the fun and growth that recreational (tourist) diving provides...

 

[MikeFerrara]

I was asking about the AOW class, but I see that the Rescue class had the same problem. Did you not go into the Bouyancy skills with the Rescue class? The reason I ask is I want to know what you did different during your classes to address bouyancy skills?

I've outlined some of the things that we do when teaching an OW classes in lots of posts.

When teaching an AOW class we start with a shallow skills dive. When I was teaching a PADI class we called Peak Performance Buoyancy. LOL

Prior to the dive I give the same weight. balance and trim lecture that I do in an OW class. We work on body position and kicks on land.

In the water we get students weighted and trimmed so they can stay horizontal. Then we go over controlled ascents and descents as buddy pairs, air sharing (off the bottom of course), mask R&R (off the bottom of course), finning technique and turns.

When that's solid enough I run a line course which student use like a buoyancy control course. I don't like hoops because a student can be all over the place then line up with the hoop and slip through and they think they did ok. The line slopes up, down and makes sharp turns. The students follow the line in buddy teams. If they can't stay with the line or with each other it's obvious to them.

Only after this stuff will I even begin to consider something like a "deep dive". If you can't dive shallow there isn't any sense in going deep, IMO.

We do a similar routine on the front end of pretty much all classes. for students who are pretty good it might take 20 minutes but for some it's multiple dives.

When I teach an OW class we work on all this stuff before we even go to OW and once we do and we double check to make sure we're in good shape and every ones comfortable in a controlled area before we start dive 1.