Thank heavens for PADI

[gj62]

No. The dive today philosophy is the PADI term for the methodology underwhich they have been systematically restructuring all their courses under the last few years.

Some of the key changes to OW for example includes things like...OW dive 1 can be done after CW dive one and before knowledge development. This makes it so a diver can come in off the street and jump in the water immediately after a briefing, to do a "resort course" but the whole thing can be credited towards the OW certification as CW 1 and OW dive 1. Allong with that change there are no skills required on dive 1. You see..."Dive today"

My memory is obviously not what it used to be - I thought that PADI supported a resort experience that did not require all coursework to be done prior to a dive 20 years ago... Or is it just that this dive now applies to the OW requirement?

Exactly my point. I don't certify divers who are strugling with the very most basic aspects of diving. In fact I won't take them to OW for their very first dive.

OK, substitute "struggling" with "still getting comfortable" - unless you're going to dramatically up the # of required dives, I don't think most folks can "master" bouyancy in 4 dives.

Absolutely not true! In last years report (It think it was last years) buoyancy control problems were reported on somewhere around 60% of the dives that resulte in fatalities. It wasn't reported last year but the year before buoyancy control problems were reported in like 40% of the dives that resulted in injury.

My comment *agreed* that bouyancy is a factor. It disagreed that is was a new diver phenomenon. My understanding of the reports is that despite all of this, the numbers do not reflect a growing number of accidents per newly certified diver (at least not year-to-year trend) - are there other stats that bear this out?

I too learned without formal instruction. A horse-collar with no power inflator was my intro to bouyancy management in SoCal (in warm waters, no BC, no weights, when I started).

Mike, hey, I agree people could (and should) be better trained. However, I'll submit that until the agencies monitor their instructors more closely, *any* curriculum change is unlikely to have much overall effect.

 

[MikeFerrara]

My memory is obviously not what it used to be - I thought that PADI supported a resort experience that did not require all coursework to be done prior to a dive 20 years ago... Or is it just that this dive now applies to the OW requirement?

The resort courses have been around longer than I have but now they can get OW class credit for it because of the change in structure.

OK, substitute "struggling" with "still getting comfortable" - unless you're going to dramatically up the # of required dives, I don't think most folks can "master" bouyancy in 4 dives.

I think this is important. With just a little more practice then many get before going to open water, a little knowledge in the mechanics of balance and trim, learning to do skills off the bottom and OW dives with some actual bottom time diving they can get much better than what we typically see.

I wouldn't use the word "master" but by getting solid basics in the pool (certainly more than the 4 or 5 hours that's typical around here) and doing 4 good dives the difference can be dramatic.

Mike, hey, I agree people could (and should) be better trained. However, I'll submit that until the agencies monitor their instructors more closely, *any* curriculum change is unlikely to have much overall effect.

I agree. There are two distinct issues. One is what the standards require and the other is enforcing them.

 

[gj62]

I don't understand your point. A stable demand is still demand. It doesn't need to be growth based to be a demand.

R..

I'm Company X. In a stable demand market, Company X produces and sells a fixed number of units each year, no more, no less. That also fixes the profit number, based upon cost-of-goods and operations. The only way to increase profit is to grow the business. Most companies think increased profits are good. In fact, most business would be concerned if there truly were no growth, because if the economy is growing, and they aren't, then in fact they are in decline - not a good position for a business.

I am a small business owner - my business plan calls for me to double the size each year, which will fuel my growth plans (R&D, etc). Were I to truly have a "stable" demand (no growth), I would be very concerned about the longevity of my business. What if more competitors entered my market? Even if they only captured 5% of the market, they would have a negative impact on my business.

Certainly, if a public company were to ever announce that they were in a "stable" (re: no growth) market, their shares would take a beating...

 

[MikeFerrara]

My comment *agreed* that bouyancy is a factor. It disagreed that is was a new diver phenomenon. My understanding of the reports is that despite all of this, the numbers do not reflect a growing number of accidents per newly certified diver (at least not year-to-year trend) - are there other stats that bear this out?

Oops forgot this.

I'm not aware of any large increase although we don't know how many active divers there are or how many dives are done. I am confused about one thing though and that is that I have seen more accidents the last couple of years. Either they're all clumped together or the DAN reports aren't telling us everything.

I wonder how many of the ambulance runs that I've seen have been reported to DAN.

Also some of those people may have been checked and released without ever making it into the book.

I tend to think that while we have new divers cycling in all the time at the same time others are quiting keeping the number of dives fairly constant. Just a theory but I know for a fact that many people get certified, dive on one vacation or whatever and never again.

 

[gj62]

Oops forgot this.

I'm not aware of any large increase although we don't know how many active divers there are or how many dives are done. I am confused about one thing though and that is that I have seen more accidents the last couple of years. Either they're all clumped together or the DAN reports aren't telling us everything.

I wonder how many of the ambulance runs that I've seen have been reported to DAN.

Also some of those people may have been checked and released without ever making it into the book.

I tend to think that while we have new divers cycling in all the time at the same time others are quiting keeping the number of dives fairly constant. Just a theory but I know for a fact that many people get certified, dive on one vacation or whatever and never again.

I would like to think that DAN captures a majority, or at least captures enough that their statistics can be used to spot trends.

Most dive equipment companies experience some level of growth. Unless old divers are buying newer equipment faster than ever before, I would say that the number of active divers is increasing.

While I don't doubt your experience, it is, to a large extent, anecdotal. While that is certainly a valid reference point for your opinion, I wish we could find some evidence in the DAN report to support it... Then pressure could be applied to the agencies...

 

[MikeFerrara]

I wish we could find some evidence in the DAN report to support it... Then pressure could be applied to the agencies...

I just wish that we could get people to use some measure other than inury or death to gauge the effectiveness of training.

 

[gj62]

I just wish that we could get people to use some measure other than inury or death to gauge the effectiveness of training.

Well, unless you have the means to survey a large percentage of the dive sites a large percentage of the time with objective observers that have the same criteria, I don't see how that will happen. Got any ideas?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Well, unless you have the means to survey a large percentage of the dive sites a large percentage of the time with objective observers that have the same criteria, I don't see how that will happen. Got any ideas?

Actually it's something we talked about a while back. We considered a simple count with ratings for skills of divers observed.

You know...
Date
number of divers observed
attitude in the water
comfort rating
silting
and whatever else

Maybe some video

Just like a fish count. All it would really do is put some number to it and document it as apposed to me saying ...I was at Gilboa yesterday and the vis was great until some divers came and then the silt was so thick a boat paddle could have stood up in it".

If I remember right I think we also talked about conducting more controled skills tests that divers would be asked to volunteer for.

I would just pick some number of the busy dive sites. Around here that would be places like Gilboa or Haigh and spend x number of the busy weekends there while some one else did the same in another part of the country.

Just a rough documented measure of quality.

Data is the easiest part really. The question is what do you do with it once you have it. I mean...who cares?

 

[gj62]

Probably no one cares except a few - especially with this type of survey, because it won't tell you much.

You won't know agency, experience, etc. All you'll know is that there are some people that meet certain standards (maybe) and some that don't.

Subjective scoring is a problem you'll run into. Don't know if you've ever done sport tryouts - where coaches rate kids based upon skills. We just went through it ranking kids 1 to 5 in certain categories - you wouldn't believe the range different coaches give different kids - and this is *AFTER* we all agreed as to what makes a 5!

 

[RiverRat]

I'm a fairly recent PADI OW, AOW and Nitrox certified diver (last summer)
I've not yet trained with any of the other organizations so I can't really compare to them, just offering my perspective as a recent PADI instructed diver. I have to say I thought overall I had a decent, thorough instructor. Always answered any questions we had in detail. She recommended going right to AOW classes as in her mind (I tend to agree) that AOW is more or less "OW II", a continuation. I must say I was more confident after the AOW dives even though my buoyancy skills and trim were HORRIBLE. The peak performance buoyancy class was really a waste at that point in time. One thing I did notice was that there was no detailed training on obtaining neutral buoyancy. Just the standard "float at eye level" weight check. That was with a FULL tank by the way, not an empty one. I understand you can only go into so much detail and that the OW training is pretty much to get you started but getting divers trim and neutral seems to me has to come right away. I've seen other divers that trained with me still don't get it and are struggling with their diving bigtime. To make a long story short, I hunted for the knowledge I needed on weighting, tanks, getting neutral, gear etc. I built my own BP/W with FredT on the board and jumped in the ocean. After several dives I found that "sweet spot" and the light went on as to how one should really dive. I dunno, just my 2 cents.........