Thank heavens for PADI

[Whirling Girl]

chiara once bubbled...


Let me get this straight: you started diving in January, got as far as OW-certified and you know absolutely everything about scuba diving?

You have recent, but PLEASE LET ME SAY YOU HAVE VERY LIMITED EXPERIENCE WITH PADI.

And yes, I'm well aware I'm shouting, it was my purpose in the first place.

No need to shout, you are correct, I have very limiited experience. And of course I don't know everything about diving; I'm sorry if I gave that impression, I try to mention as frequently as possible just how little I know.

However, since I had very recent experience with PADI, I thought it might be relevant to this discussion.

Just to be clear: Grateful for PADI because I learned to scuba dive. Critical of PADI because their curriculum did not, in my opinion, teach me to be safe underwater.

Margaret

 

[diverbrian]

Open water training is designed to train a diver to not get themself killed and to learn from there. All of our instructors and divecons are required to have demonstration quality buoyancy skills to give the students something to aspire to. In this, I agree with the DIR and MikeF group. Instructors that stir up the bottom (and I have seen some) should not be instructing. "One hundred dive wonders" should not be instructing.

This being said, all of our instructors use BC's and split fins in recreational gear out of sheer preference (well, except my Advanced Nitrox instructor and I have NEVER seen him without doubles so I don't count him, LOL). The only kick that we don't demonstrate is the backwards kick. I will be honest, I think that the only divers here that knows how to do it are the LDS owner (who likes his splits to much, so he sacrifices the ability) and the Advanced Nitrox instuctor.

Let the students learn their own preferred way of doing things. Let them learn the problems and not just tell them what the solutions as long as what they doing isn't hazardous. As long as they have good buoyancy and a decent idea of basis emergency skills (which I haven't seen any of our students who don't that complete OW), they will be safe to learn. They will learn if they prefer a BP/W and long hose and why. Most will be in rental gear in the Caribbean. Guess what type of gear gets rented out down there? The safety of the students after course is still dependent on the instructor and students. There is also more than one way to teach them. Whatever makes a safe diver is fine by me.

I am not PADI certified. I will probably never have any card issued by PADI, but I will say that all the major agencies have some "bad apple" instructors that graduate unsafe students. As well, they all have many instructors that are superb and care about students. I have seen both extremes. NAUI and SSI are no different there. For that matter read Neutral Buoyancy by Tim Ecott. He tells a harrowing story of a BSAC instructor.

I would say to Whirling Girl that I am happy that she found a way to dramatically improve her skills. Likewise my DiveCon and Advanced Nitrox taught me ten times as much as I learned in OW. But diving with an OW card gave me the experience to learn it and evaluate it critically to develop my own "style" of diving that suits me. Guess what? It is still developing and I am still learning. I hope to never quit learning how to be a better diver.

Maybe that is the most important lesson that any instructor can teach any student. I don't care what the agency is.

 

[MikeFerrara]

PhotoTJ once bubbled...

Every diver has different goals...

Yes, and the way I and many others were trained they assume you'll be diving the Caribbean with a babby sitter, I think. I try to give student a solid foundation such that they're prepared to follow what ever diving interest they have.

...and gear preferances. Some may love the very items you wish to eliminate. And remember, 'the whole story'? The vast majority of what we debate here is a matter of opinion. That's why we debate it! (Plus, we are both stubborn cusses, I'll wager.)


If an instructor dives one way, knows it, and loves it, odds are he'll teach that way, and allow his students to find out other on their own.

Not really. In the class we look at and talk about all different types of equipment and configurations. I have more than one type of bc for students to use. I explain why I use what I use and what I used before.

Now with good basic skills and the equipment information they have to start with, I think my students are better prepared than most to decide where, how and in what equipment they're going to dive.

There are lots of students that don't know that anything except a jacket bc exists but that isn't the way we teach.

 

[TCDiver1]

Whirling Girl once bubbled...

DIRF is only one weekend and I learned more skills and information in that weekend than I learned in a three week PADI openwater course.

Margaret,

You have really had a double dose of kool-aid haven't you?

Think about what you said here one more time. You may have learned new things or techniques in your DIRF but it was hardly as thorough in teaching OW diving to you than your PADI course. I'm not going to waste bandwidth here but i can probably think of over 200 specific knowledge development topics required by PADI standards alone. Also there are plenty of in water skills presented and performed in most OW courses, that are never touched on in the DIRF.

If you still feel the same way, you need to report your instructor to PADI. There is no way you should have gotten more information or learned more skills in your DIRF.

If you are drinking the kool-aid, i hope its the sugar free version. All that sugar is not good for you.

 

[ScoobyDave]

Lot's of good comments here.

I'll have to say that I dove for years without any agency training or certification card. Before everyone blows flames back here, I'll add that I was under the direct mentoring and training of an experienced diver. I have over 100 dives logged diving in this manner.

I recently went after my certification, and enjoyed the course as a learning experience and refresher for any missing skills. The agency isn't important - I had an excellent instructor that did a good job. As good a job as he did, I insist that my dive mentor did far more to teach me the starting skills I needed to dive safely, enjoy scuba, and instill a sense that I must always add to and hone my skillset.

So, to the author's premise that PADI essentially "created" the industry, I say it's experienced divers that bring friends and family. I explain to others thinking of diving that yes, they need to take the intro courses, and any others they desire - but to also find an experienced mentor to continue the process.

The difficulty I am having is finding an experienced diver willing to limit his diving to continue mentoring me. Think about that next time you bash the agency trainings and go find a newbie to take under your wing.

Dave

 

[TCDiver1]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


Yes, and the way I and many others were trained they assume you'll be diving the Caribbean with a babby sitter, I think. I try to give student a solid foundation such that they're prepared to follow what ever diving interest they have.

For what its worth .......
like many good debates, i believe this one has much middle ground. I respect MikeF a great deal for what he is doing and he has helped out my teaching technique a great deal but i don't agree with him on everything. His way will put out better divers than lesser courses .... there is little doubt of that in my mind.

The question remains what should be ethically required, in teaching OW diving. Its a great question, that will be actively debated long after we are all gone. I, for one, believe the correct answer (if there is one) is somewhere between the current PADI system and MikeF's system when discussing recreational OW training.

 

[saying]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
I don't teach a three month class. I have students in the pool for five nights for three hours per night. Why? because I found that's how long it takes to prepare them for open water without having to chase them to the surface or pull them out of the muck every 2 minutes. I need to see them handle things like a free flow, sharing air or clearing a mask midwater. Why? because when these things happen they happen mid water. I've seen too many people shoot out of the water to their waist or even hauled away in an ambulance after a rapid ascent that started with a free flow. You may never have one but then again you might.

I still say thank god for PADI. But I would have very much liked to have taken your class.

 

[MikeFerrara]

gedunk once bubbled...



The question remains what should be ethically required, in teaching OW diving. Its a great question, that will be actively debated long after we are all gone. I, for one, believe the correct answer (if there is one) is somewhere between the current PADI system and MikeF's system when discussing recreational OW training.

Good point. the standards only do so much. Only so much can go in print and instructors like everyone else will always be ablt to choose to do a good job or a bad job. Not every one will have the same idea of what is good or bad. To an extent every one will have to answer the ethics question for themself. Like anything else...what do you want to see when you stand back and look at your work? Nobody can answer that for you.

 

[MikeFerrara]

ScoobyDave once bubbled...

The difficulty I am having is finding an experienced diver willing to limit his diving to continue mentoring me. Think about that next time you bash the agency trainings and go find a newbie to take under your wing.

Dave

I don't think there's enough mentoring. Today a person schedules a vacation then decides as an afterthought it might be good to get a diving certification. I have met divers through the shop who have dived for years but only on vacation and they don't associate with any other divers in the area or dive locally.

The divers who hang out with more experience divers after certification have a much better chance of learnig what they need to know regardless of what they were tought in their class. Of course the problem with learning on the street is you need to be careful where but nothing's perfect.

 

[scubasean]

Whirling Girl once bubbled...

Critical of PADI because their curriculum did not, in my opinion, teach me to be safe underwater.

Margaret

What were the missing items that, due to the absence of the item(s) caused you to be unsafe underwater? (not less confident, but actually unsafe...)

My 14 yr old son recently took a PADI OW course, and he is safe in the water, IMHO.

I'm not talking about the standards, but actual practical experience.

Just curious.

Sean