"Term limits" on certifications

[drbill]

... But you still didn't answer my question about what would you do about divers with many certifications from many different agencies. What would the refresher look like and how would you handle the cross agency issue?

A diver with multiple certifications from different agencies is probably not going to need a recert since they probably dive frequently. Assumptions, yes... but probably fair ones.

 

[DiveGolfSki]

If GUE got involved more, we'd have a real "sticky" situation (that's a joke).

Finally, a joke I can understand You CAAAALIIIIFOOORNIIIANNS.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Hmm, you're saying that Narcosis is an absolute non-issue for us? Us who? Technical Divers? Recreational Divers? "We use helium". Who's We? Obviously, trimix certified divers? Sorry, I must have stumbled into the dark world of "tech" diving (deep, dark and dangerous). Narcosis is not an issue for technical divers? Perhaps. I understand the use of trimix can minimize the risk but completely eliminate it?

Sorry the "we" was used to refer to myself and those I dive with. We (the same we as before) rarely ever dive with an END greater than 100 ft and typically it's shallower. You could argue that there is some narcosis at 80 ft but very minimal.

What about the non-tech world? Granted that most people may get narced at PPN of 3.2 and the use of trimix can minimize the risk (at depth anyway) but doesn't susceptibility to narcosis vary from one diver to another (rec diver, AOW, tech, GUE, DIR... whatever).

Of course it varies from diver to diver and from dive to dive for the same diver. Keeping END to the levels I mentioned above does a pretty good job of managing things though. As far as the non tech world, they have the same 2 choices as every one else...Control the END by limiting dive depth or gas choices or push the END and subject yourself to greater levels of narcosis.

 

[MikeFerrara]

And of course an individual like yourself with your experience and your own fill station would hardly be one in need of recertification!

You have to be careful here there are those who disagree. GUE disagrees and the way I understand it, they have document X number of dives within a certain time frame to their highest level of certification.

Beyond that, I can't see myself ever needing a recreational instructor to go over the basic skills with me regardless of how long I would be away from diving. However, I could become rusty on say lost line or lost buddy cave procedures. My line handling technique could certainly suffer from non-use. The same is true for many other skills. I have to worry as much or even more about rusty skills getting me into trouble than any one else. More technical dives whether because of long exposures to temperature, high flow all the extra equipment ect ect have the potential to be far more physically demanding...and I'm 46 and work at a desk. In short we all will lose skills we don't use. The only difference is which specific skills are in question. My mask clearing skills are probably safe. LOL

Even so, If you say that I wouldn't need the recertification that we're talking about how does PADI know that I have a TDI trimix card. All they know is I haven't shown up for my review so they pull my OW card? There's nothing on the card that say it expires. Those aren't the conditions we agreed to when I took the class. Would they just crawfish and take it back?

 

[MikeFerrara]

A diver with multiple certifications from different agencies is probably not going to need a recert since they probably dive frequently. Assumptions, yes... but probably fair ones.

Well it means they were active when they were getting all the certifications anyway. I have a box of certifications but I haven't been in the water since last fall. So, on the very first try your assumptions about activity were incorrect. Right now I wouldn't do anything big without working up to it but but I'm very confidant in my mask clearing skills and stuff. LOL

 

[Kriterian]

What your talking about isn't self imposed regulation it's agency imposed regulation. In my experience the agencies are non-diving idiots and I don't want them regulating anything.

I would rather see the idea of flashing a c-card for an air fill or a boat ride go away all together. I can buy a compressor without a card why not a single tank of air? I can by a boat without a card, why would I need a card to buy a ride on a boat?

The problem with your example is liability. You flash a card to rent that air or ride that boat because the dive shop/charter company would be responsible in the case of an accident. If you buy your own boat or compressor, YOU are the one responsible.

Either way I like the freedom I have now when diving. It's something that you as the diver should take responsibility for your own safety, not the government or any new agency.

 

[jakubson]

<snip>
The fact is that the circus we get to watch at dive parks is, IMO, a direct result of the way the agencies approach dive instruction. They ARE the problem and will never be the solution.
<snip>

Game, set, match! As Mike says here and in other posts, how can recertification be meaningful when initial certification is a joke? Treat the disease, not the symptoms.

 

[drbill]

Well it means they were active when they were getting all the certifications anyway. I have a box of certifications but I haven't been in the water since last fall. So, on the very first try your assumptions about activity were incorrect. Right now I wouldn't do anything big without working up to it but but I'm very confidant in my mask clearing skills and stuff. LOL

I wouldn't consider you a candidate for recertification based on that. You've dived within the last year.

 

[drbill]

Game, set, match! As Mike says here and in other posts, how can recertification be meaningful when initial certification is a joke? Treat the disease, not the symptoms.

Agree that this is a very valid point in too many cases (but by no means all or probably even the majority).

 

[MikeFerrara]

The problem with your example is liability. You flash a card to rent that air or ride that boat because the dive shop/charter company would be responsible in the case of an accident.

I wonder. What if instead of going out on a dive charter I just hired a captain and his boat. Lets say that this captain doesn't know or claim to know anything about diving. I just hire him to take me where I want to go and park the vesel wher I direct him to. Lets say that he agrees to do so as long as he doesn't see any danger to his vesel. Further more we have a contract, liability waivers or whatever similar to what you sign now evberytoime you get on a boat or take a class.

The only reason you need a card to get on a dive boat is because the resorts and charters are often agency retail members and sign an agreement that they will require certifications. The insurance companies that agencies negotiate rates with insist on agency affiliation and part of the deal is that you follow agency standards...again with the cards. I don't believe that the card reduces liability in any way. What it does is help the business get insurance with a specific company. A general charter is likely to have some kind of insurance also. Maybe diving isn't specifically spelled out in the policy but it might not be excluded either. How about if I just rent the boat without the crew. They don't know or care whether or not I go diving as long as I bring the boat back. The diving adds no liability. The owner is responsible for his boat not causing me harm like blowing up underneath me or something. A charter boat that just provides you transportation or a gas supplier that just provides gas has established no duty of care in the area of diving. When you deal with them you are assuming the position of the diving expert.

I go buy 300 cu ft bottles of helium and O2 all the time. In fact they will preblend any mix I want to my specifications and I promise I won't have to show any kind of card. The fact that I use it for diving or blowing up my butt has no bearing on any ones liability. They have no responsibility at all for my correct or incorrect use of it and don't care if I use it in my garage or at 300 ft in a cave! And I get it at a FRACTION of the cost of what a dive shop would charge! They don't know or care anything about diving. They sell gas.

Don't you think it's funny that dive shops fill scuba tanks for people who say they are paint ballers. When I had my shop I wouldn't fill for them in the beginning because I had signed an agreement with PADI that said I needed to see a certification. I talked to PADI and the insurance company and the answer was go ahead and sell to them. The card thing is just to leverage divers...all others need only bring money.

You don't need a card to hire or rent a boat and you don need a card to buy gas...unless it's a dive boat or dive shop.