"Term limits" on certifications

[MikeFerrara]

Heh, heh... no, I will only date a woman who is already a diver because SHE wants to be one. Don't want to try to transform anyone to meet my desires. Actually I've known a number of drop dead gorgeous women who are sweethearts. It's amazing how many of them are rarely approached by a male because he lacks confidence or assumes she already has plenty of other fish in her basket.

My wife wasn't a diver when I met her but only because she never had the chance or thought about it living inland. It was definately her idea to dive. She was my number one DM when I was teaching and ran the dive shop while I worked a day job (which she hated with a passion). She's my primary dive buddy including deep wrecks and caves and when we're in a time crunch she mixes all our gas.

Dive buddies like that are made (for lack of a beeter word) not found...and if you do find one like that it'll probably be a guy. LOL

 

[MikeFerrara]

The other relates more to this discussion. Diver either diving solo or separated from his buddy runs out of air at 80 feet and does a rapid ascent. Fortunately he is going to be alright. How do you run out of air at 80 feet? How do you run out of air period (unless you get trapped somehow)?

Gas management...
I've seen divers run out of air. After watching it happen, studying training standards in depth and a lot of first hand experience with training I'd say it's because divers aren't taught gas management. I mean all the way to the instructor level you will find some agencies (the biggest) texts and standards totally void of any meaningful information on gas management. Sure saome instructors teach it but so so many can't teach it because they've never had to learn it and it isn't a required topic. Divers are taught to watch their gage! They are taught what to do when they run out. Well, some watch it get way too low and since they've lost or can't work with their buddy (see below) they get to try that ESA thing. Great watch the gauge but what do you do with the number? The stinking agancies don't tell any one that. They have no idea when they should head for the surface.

The buddy seperation thing...
Diver are not taught to buddy dive. If they get to do anything aside from skills on their knees during initial training they are following the instructor in a pack with a DM bringing up the rear. They are never asked to or tested in their ability to work with a buddy. Again some instructors do a much better job than this but it's certainly not required by the agency. The buddy system is given lip service only.

These are two of the most important topics where agencies and many instructors completely fail. There are a host of other topics that they screw up or leave out and I'll go into them if you want but I've done it so many times that now it's just work. In the time it takes to get one diver or instructor thinking about stuff the agency turns out 1000 more who are completely lost. This is also a big part of why I could never go along with recertification. Some agencies are marketing gurus but they don't seem to know crap about diving.

 

[dyarab]

Because there is no great public hazard in their doing so. You have no more right to restrict a person's recreational diving activities than you do to require certification and recertification of a "certificate for jogging" - an activity, by the way, that kills far more participants in bad shape than diving ever hopes to.
In this country, your desire to save people from themselves is trumped by their right to do as they please. Pray it stays that way.
Rick

Well said and 100% right. I am so sick of people wanting to have the government regulate everything we do. The government is already involved IN WAY TOO MANY aspects of our lives.

If an obese, out of shape person, with no real grasp of basic open water skills wants to hop into the ocean. That is his/her decision. If Darwin decides to claim another victim, so be it... that is his decision.

People need to take responsibilty for themselves... it's that simple.

 

[dyarab]

Gas management...
I've seen divers run out of air. After watching it happen, studying training standards in depth and a lot of first hand experience with training I'd say it's because divers aren't taught gas management. I mean all the way to the instructor level you will find some agencies (the biggest) texts and standards totally void of any meaningful information on gas management. Sure saome instructors teach it but so so many can't teach it because they've never had to learn it and it isn't a required topic. Divers are taught to watch their gage! They are taught what to do when they run out. Well, some watch it get way too low and since they've lost or can't work with their buddy (see below) they get to try that ESA thing. Great watch the gauge but what do you do with the number? The stinking agancies don't tell any one that. They have no idea when they should head for the surface.

I was in the Keys over the holiday weekend. My wife and I were diving together, which is the norm, and we were pseudo-paired with a third diver. To be brief... we all started out together. I kept my eye on him, but he eventually went off to do his own thing, he was more worried with taking pictures on his third open water dive than anything else. While he was off getting his pictures to show all his friends at the office, we crossed path's numerous times during the dive. My wife and I both signaled if he was OK and what his air status was. We never got a reply. Luckly for him when we coincidentally met at the line, we all ascended to 15 feet. As I was watching the computer and looking for any intersting sights as I hung there... I look up (wife was a foot or two above me) to my wife and she is giving him her primary and switching to her AIR2. I couldn't believe it. It was a 35ft ******ing dive, he was asked numerous times about his air, and here he is breathing off of my wife's tank. He apparently signaled he was out of air. I held my tongue when we got back onboard, but I wanted to go off on this idiot. I told the operation we were diving with when we got back to shore, and requested that we be nowhere near this idiot the rest of the week. They had no problem with that and were appreciative of the way we handled the situation.

3rd open water dive and in the water with no divemaster. Where is my state represenative, obviously he needs to do something about that! <sarcasm off>

My wife and I have just under 30 dives. I do not claim to know everything there is to know about diving, nor does my wife. But we both read alot about it, and just about everytime I come to this board I learn something about diving. After 5 days of diving in the Keys, and watching the countless divers (I use the term loosely) I now know we got top notch training and are way ahead of the learning curve (when compared to most divers at this stage). Some people just shouldn't be underwater.

 

[taurus7690]

I am not in favor of forcing students to come in to my shop every few years to get recertified. It should be a judgemnt call of the individual whether or not they take a refresher course. SCUBA is getting way too expensive. As an instructor I have paid over $10,000 between courses, materials and equiptment. This does not include fees charged in order to boat dive or dive in the local springs. There are way too many rules now. people who do other dangerous sports that are equally equiptment intensive are not even required to be certified, much less get recertified every few years. Leave us divers alone.

 

[drbill]

... I am so sick of people wanting to have the government regulate everything we do. The government is already involved IN WAY TOO MANY aspects of our lives.

If an obese, out of shape person, with no real grasp of basic open water skills wants to hop into the ocean. That is his/her decision. If Darwin decides to claim another victim, so be it... that is his decision.

People need to take responsibilty for themselves... it's that simple.

As the thread starter, please understand that I have stated several times that I don't want government involved either, just the system that already exists- LDS's, dive boat operators and dive agencies.

Based on the feelings expressed in this thread, I will no longer feel any obligation to jump in and try to rescue an obese or non-swimming diver in trouble. As a former teacher of evolution, I should have realized that society today wants social Darwinism as well. Death to the unfit and inexperienced, I say (in jest)! I'll just have to do more to pass on my genes to the next generation. Any takers out there?

 

[scubafool]

I think too often agencies downplay the fact that SCUBA can have serious risk involved IF you do not maintain skills, conditioning, etc. Boils back down to the issue of better initial certification.

Start a thread calling for changes to the above problem, & I will back you all the way.

 

[dyarab]

Based on the feelings expressed in this thread, I will no longer feel any obligation to jump in and try to rescue an obese or non-swimming diver in trouble. As a former teacher of evolution, I should have realized that society today wants social Darwinism as well. Death to the unfit and inexperienced, I say (in jest)! I'll just have to do more to pass on my genes to the next generation. Any takers out there?

I know you're being sarcastic, but I never implied that a diver should not help another diver in trouble.

"social Darwinism" is better than Socialism... in my opinion.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Bill, The problem here is you're looking to make diving safer than it is. You think recertification would help and I think the problem is the certification in the first place. Either way the industry and the market has decided that diving is safe enough as it is. The 100 or so deaths reported to DAN is apparantly an acceptable loss because no one is screaming for change except for a very few of us.

For me it's not only the injuries but people just seem to enjoy their diving more and strugle less if taught the basics better. No matter, the fact is that few care.

Whether or not to attempt a rescue is always a personal choice. My feeling is that if the situation is within your ability you should try. I will say that more and more I stay out of places like crowded dive parks because I can't bare to watch some of this stuff. It just ruins my own fun and the so-called classes are sometimes the hardest to watch. Sometimes I feel like grabbing the instructor and shaking him till he gets it but I can't do that either.

 

[oceancrest67]

I was in the Keys over the holiday weekend. My wife and I were diving together, which is the norm, and we were pseudo-paired with a third diver. To be brief... we all started out together. I kept my eye on him, but he eventually went off to do his own thing, he was more worried with taking pictures on his third open water dive than anything else. While he was off getting his pictures to show all his friends at the office, we crossed path's numerous times during the dive. My wife and I both signaled if he was OK and what his air status was. We never got a reply. Luckly for him when we coincidentally met at the line, we all ascended to 15 feet. As I was watching the computer and looking for any intersting sights as I hung there... I look up (wife was a foot or two above me) to my wife and she is giving him her primary and switching to her AIR2. I couldn't believe it. It was a 35ft ******ing dive, he was asked numerous times about his air, and here he is breathing off of my wife's tank. He apparently signaled he was out of air. I held my tongue when we got back onboard, but I wanted to go off on this idiot. I told the operation we were diving with when we got back to shore, and requested that we be nowhere near this idiot the rest of the week. They had no problem with that and were appreciative of the way we handled the situation.

3rd open water dive and in the water with no divemaster. Where is my state represenative, obviously he needs to do something about that! <sarcasm off>

My wife and I have just under 30 dives. I do not claim to know everything there is to know about diving, nor does my wife. But we both read alot about it, and just about everytime I come to this board I learn something about diving. After 5 days of diving in the Keys, and watching the countless divers (I use the term loosely) I now know we got top notch training and are way ahead of the learning curve (when compared to most divers at this stage). Some people just shouldn't be underwater.

It has been my experience that diving in the Keys attracts many a newly certified diver itching to get out on yet another cattle boat dive outfit. I appreciate the Keys. I appreciate the people that live and work in the Keys...but, some diving outfits just want to pack the boats for a 20 minute cruise out to the shallow reefs.

Like you...I have seen enough of the newly certified bang up the reefs, slop all over the dive boat, stumble all over everyone without consideration, and mis-communicate skill level and diving experience.

I have been diving for 11 years now. I am a DM with some tech experience and I have come to the conclusion that the agencies are not doing enough initially...the standards are built into the tourist trade and not into building good divers.

Just my 02