"Term limits" on certifications

[drbill]

Since there is not fitness requirement to become certified, how can there be one to remain certified?

It doesn't sound like you needed a babysitter to get yourself through it.

A very glaring fault in initial certification IMHO.

I could use one if she is a great diver, intelligent and drop dead gorgeous! Of course I don't foresee any gaps in my future diving unless money runs out for air fills.

 

[DiveGolfSki]

Dr. Bill started this thread due to a recent death in CA that he initially attributed to poor fitness and, in an effort to miminize diver's death caused by poor skills or poor fitness (I think that's the gist), proposed fitness and skills be re-certified. A lot of people of cited accident statistics (with some really great graphs...) but here's a list that I'm sure many us can add to:

Sheck Exley
David Shaw
Bill McFadden

All Were well-skilled and extremely fit (I know ... they were doing high risk dives). So if the goal is to minimize diver's death .... will re-certifying do anything? Or are we just participating in an activity with a high risk of personal injury (or death) that no amount of re-certifying can truly eliminate. Minimizing maybe but the risk of death is never really taken out of the picture.

 

[blueeyes_austin]

Look, there's a basic problem here with Dr. Bill's proposal--credentials are an imperfect, AT BEST, substitute for skills.

And it is SKILLS not credentials that are the issue in diving.

Let's say you've just popped off the plane in Vanuatu all hot to dive the Coolidge. Dive operator gives you two choices for your buddy:

A) Sammy McWet, fresh off of his OW and AOW courses on the GBR only five days ago! Sammy has made a grand total of 17 dives, but since he is AOW is "certified" to make "deep dives. In fact, he is good to go for a year!

B) Ruth D'Crustee, 350 logged dives including regular and significant experience at 40m and below in current and trecherous conditions. Never took her advanced course, however, so she's still only an OWD. Alas, however, Ruth had a child three years ago and hasn't dived in the intervening years.

So, who are you going to choose as your buddy? The "certified expert" or the REAL expert?

Are you safer diving with Ruth on the Coolidge on the second dive day (after one day of easier diving for her to get her scuba legs back) or with Sammy with his "certification?" Would you insist that Ruth redo her entire OW course to dive with you?

Please, let's be realistic here.

 

[jcm996]

I have read a few people commenting on not getting carded in the US, but getting totally checked over in a "3rd world" country.

Wouldn't the reason for this be, in the US it is just another news report, but when you plan a dive trip are you going to go to a "small" island where 90 people died last year. No they are looking out for their livly hood. Bad PR and you could be back on the streets, where being a divemaster may be a great living if you are a local.

Just last Jan, 18 of us went to Cozumel. On the 4th day of diving we wanted to go to the devils throat. Only 6 of the 18 were going to go through. 3 were dive shop owner/instructors. The other 3 500-4000 dives, mainly in the Great lakes were 160 is a normal dive. The DM got in the water and check the conditions for 10 minutes before ok ing the dive to 130. How much do you want to bet if something would have happened to one of them he would not have worked as a divemaster in the area for a long time if ever. These guys know they have to think for the divers to protect them. In the US they don't care as much, you signed a waiver and it is good enough for most. I do know that around here if you are not AOW 90% of the DM's and charters won't take you much past 60 feet, maybe 80 tops.

 

[drbill]

Dr. Bill started this thread due to a recent death in CA that he initially attributed to poor fitness and, in an effort to miminize diver's death caused by poor skills or poor fitness (I think that's the gist), proposed fitness and skills be re-certified. A lot of people of cited accident statistics (with some really great graphs...) but here's a list that I'm sure many us can add to:

Sheck Exley
David Shaw
Bill McFadden

All Were well-skilled and extremely fit (I know ... they were doing high risk dives). So if the goal is to minimize diver's death .... will re-certifying do anything? Or are we just participating in an activity with a high risk of personal injury (or death) that no amount of re-certifying can truly eliminate. Minimizing maybe but the risk of death is never really taken out of the picture.

I think the risk factor in these diver's situations is quite different from the BOW or AOW recreational diver who dives to 50-60 feet (or maybe 100-130 occasionally).

Personally I would never undertake the type of diving they did, both from a standpoint of lack of training and risk. They did, understanding the risk factors involved.

I think too often agencies downplay the fact that SCUBA can have serious risk involved IF you do not maintain skills, conditioning, etc. Boils back down to the issue of better initial certification.

 

[drbill]

Look, there's a basic problem here with Dr. Bill's proposal--credentials are an imperfect, AT BEST, substitute for skills.

And it is SKILLS not credentials that are the issue in diving.

Let's say you've just popped off the plane in Vanuatu all hot to dive the Coolidge. Dive operator gives you two choices for your buddy:

A) Sammy McWet, fresh off of his OW and AOW courses on the GBR only five days ago! Sammy has made a grand total of 17 dives, but since he is AOW is "certified" to make "deep dives. In fact, he is good to go for a year!

B) Ruth D'Crustee, 350 logged dives including regular and significant experience at 40m and below in current and trecherous conditions. Never took her advanced course, however, so she's still only an OWD. Alas, however, Ruth had a child three years ago and hasn't dived in the intervening years.

So, who are you going to choose as your buddy? The "certified expert" or the REAL expert?

Are you safer diving with Ruth on the Coolidge on the second dive day (after one day of easier diving for her to get her scuba legs back) or with Sammy with his "certification?" Would you insist that Ruth redo her entire OW course to dive with you?

Please, let's be realistic here.

Probably neither since I prefer solo diving, but yes, I'd take Ruth over Sammy. Always prefer diving with a woman since they usually make better buddies (at least the ones I dive with). Do I contradict myself? Very well then, I contradict myself!

 

[drbill]

I have read a few people commenting on not getting carded in the US, but getting totally checked over in a "3rd world" country.

Wouldn't the reason for this be, in the US it is just another news report, but when you plan a dive trip are you going to go to a "small" island where 90 people died last year. No they are looking out for their livly hood. Bad PR and you could be back on the streets, where being a divemaster may be a great living if you are a local.

Just last Jan, 18 of us went to Cozumel. On the 4th day of diving we wanted to go to the devils throat. Only 6 of the 18 were going to go through. 3 were dive shop owner/instructors. The other 3 500-4000 dives, mainly in the Great lakes were 160 is a normal dive. The DM got in the water and check the conditions for 10 minutes before ok ing the dive to 130. How much do you want to bet if something would have happened to one of them he would not have worked as a divemaster in the area for a long time if ever. These guys know they have to think for the divers to protect them. In the US they don't care as much, you signed a waiver and it is good enough for most. I do know that around here if you are not AOW 90% of the DM's and charters won't take you much past 60 feet, maybe 80 tops.

I've used the phrase "Third World," but in quotes (as you did) since I often feel "they" are well ahead of us in many areas. The DM's I dove with in most countries were from a number of different countries other than the one I was diving (for example French nationals in Tahiti; US, Brit and Dutch in Thailand). However it seemed clear to me that their standards were fairly good (at least for the dive ops I went with... but I did research them ahead of time).

 

[MikeFerrara]

I could use one if she is a great diver, intelligent and drop dead gorgeous! Of course I don't foresee any gaps in my future diving unless money runs out for air fills.

Bill buddy I have to disagree with you again. You can always teach her to dive and drop dead gorgeous to the eyes is often a cover up for downright tormenting to the sole. Of course since your single you probably already know that. LOL

 

[drbill]

Bill buddy I have to disagree with you again. You can always teach her to dive and drop dead gorgeous to the eyes is often a cover up for downright tormenting to the sole. Of course since your single you probably already know that. LOL

Heh, heh... no, I will only date a woman who is already a diver because SHE wants to be one. Don't want to try to transform anyone to meet my desires. Actually I've known a number of drop dead gorgeous women who are sweethearts. It's amazing how many of them are rarely approached by a male because he lacks confidence or assumes she already has plenty of other fish in her basket.

 

[drbill]

Two more incidents reported in Catalina waters, both in the Dive Park based on reports and my own eyes.

One diver was "stung" my a stingray. I've seen round stingrays in the park the past few weeks, and they are hidden in the rocks more often than I expected. Could be easy to get zapped if you reach out for something and it turns out to be a stingray. Either that or the guy needed a good fish ID class.

The other relates more to this discussion. Diver either diving solo or separated from his buddy runs out of air at 80 feet and does a rapid ascent. Fortunately he is going to be alright. How do you run out of air at 80 feet? How do you run out of air period (unless you get trapped somehow)?