"Term limits" on certifications

[DiveGolfSki]

Lets take things one at a time. First of all breathing more will have no effect on your inert gas load. Heavy work after diving can adversly effect the way our bodies handle the inert gas already in our system by generating micro bubbles or seeds that can then grow because of our supersaturated state.

Perhaps, I oversimplied the whole issue. You are right that breathing more will have no effect on your gas load. But more work load (for whatever reason) does affect air consumption (obviously) with all the negative repurcussions. More importantly, more air + heavy load can lead to higher risk of getting narced. Again an oversimplification but divers going deep on air try to minimize excessive movements. I don't know if you heard of the "Wah Wah" report years back involving Brett Gilliam, at that time TDI President, but here's an excerpt:

"...So, I'm inflating my BC and I'm going deeper and deeper...348 feet,
350, my BC's full, 352, and I'm not feeling too happy. I went from
feeling really good to feeling really narked. This is where I made what I believe to be the second and almost fatal mistake--I kicked. I used my legs, which is the normal diver reaction. At that point, I just wanted to stop. Not even to go up, just to stop.
I took one or two kicks and I went from being completely in control and
just about capable of helping someone, into a complete headspin. That one kick used so much 02 and generated so much CO2.."

The point I was trying to make is how fit do have to be for diving. As you say, swimming is to some extent a test of general watermenship (BTW what does that mean?) but how good a swimmer should you be? Obviously, you've got to be able to swim (duh ... we're in the water). You've got to be able to swim back to the boat (Dr. Bill's rescue point ... wonder why those divers couldn't get back). You should be able to handle some unexpected current underwater and a certain amount on the surface. You should be able to handle the weight of equipment ... walking around on the boat.

But does that mean you've to be an excellent swimmer with ironman stamina? If so, the number of divers will be reduced and it will be a club. Dr. Bill will definitely be a member. I don't think I'd make it.

We've talked a lot about physiology in diving but what about psychology? Isn't being "fit" to dive a function of both (i.e. the physical AND mental aspects)? How do you test for the latter?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Perhaps, I oversimplied the whole issue. You are right that breathing more will have no effect on your gas load. But more work load (for whatever reason) does affect air consumption (obviously) with all the negative repurcussions. More importantly, more air + heavy load can lead to higher risk of getting narced. Again an oversimplification but divers going deep on air try to minimize excessive movements. I don't know if you heard of the "Wah Wah" report years back involving Brett Gilliam, at that time TDI President, but here's an excerpt:

Co2 build up can increase the the effects of narcosis and bring on dispnea which is probably an even worse consequence of heavy work or incorrect breathing. I have seen divers panic because of it. Narcosis is an absolute non-issue for us. When we dive deep we use helium. Our END is always such that narcosis just isn't a factor. If I want to get narced I crack a bottle in my living room.

The point I was trying to make is how fit do have to be for diving. As you say, swimming is to some extent a test of general watermenship (BTW what does that mean?) but how good a swimmer should you be? Obviously, you've got to be able to swim (duh ... we're in the water). You've got to be able to swim back to the boat (Dr. Bill's rescue point ... wonder why those divers couldn't get back). You should be able to handle some unexpected current underwater and a certain amount on the surface. You should be able to handle the weight of equipment ... walking around on the boat.

But does that mean you've to be an excellent swimmer with ironman stamina? If so, the number of divers will be reduced and it will be a club. Dr. Bill will definitely be a member. I don't think I'd make it.

We've talked a lot about physiology in diving but what about psychology? Isn't being "fit" to dive a function of both (i.e. the physical AND mental aspects)? How do you test for the latter?

I don't disagree. You need to be in good enough condition for the diving you do and what is that? GUE has set standards, IANTD has a whole battery of stamina tests that they "recommend" instructors use and they're a real killer too. I know because my IANTD IT was a strong believer in those tests and it almost killed me. LOL Note that IANTD recommends no more than 5 minutes rest between tests. My instructor didn't believe that an instructor candidate should need rest at all. But then there are some of the recreational agencies who think that being able to sustain yourself in the water for a couple of minutes is enough. About the time I was starting to see lots of students who couldn't swim at all they changed the requirement so you didn't have to know how. Why would some one who can't swim at all even want to dive? It's marketing.

 

[oceancrest67]

I am of the thought that swimming ability and standards ought to be a rigid requirement for anyone wanting a diving certification...and it ought to be a requirement for those already certified.

I am sorry...I just feel standards have become too lax and too easy. It is PADI marketing to couch potatoes.

 

[DiveGolfSki]

Narcosis is an absolute non-issue for us. When we dive deep we use helium. Our END is always such that narcosis just isn't a factor. If I want to get narced I crack a bottle in my living room.

Hmm, you're saying that Narcosis is an absolute non-issue for us? Us who? Technical Divers? Recreational Divers? "We use helium". Who's We? Obviously, trimix certified divers? Sorry, I must have stumbled into the dark world of "tech" diving (deep, dark and dangerous). Narcosis is not an issue for technical divers? Perhaps. I understand the use of trimix can minimize the risk but completely eliminate it?

What about the non-tech world? Granted that most people may get narced at PPN of 3.2 and the use of trimix can minimize the risk (at depth anyway) but doesn't susceptibility to narcosis vary from one diver to another (rec diver, AOW, tech, GUE, DIR... whatever).

Hell, I can crack open and finish my '89 Pichon longueville and not get narced but make it a 25 yr old Macallan and I'm chasing fish across my living room.

 

[ippy01]

[I]Another interesting statistic is that of the roughly 90 SCUBA-related deaths a year in the States, it seems about 10-12 occur here in Catalina waters. That suggests that the problem here (whether due to a greater number of divers in soCal, or more poorly-certified ones) differs from the rest of the country. I've heard talk that our local emergency personnel are concerned about the frequency of paramedic visits to the dive park (as well as picking up divers off private boats and occasionally "commercial" dive boats). I know it affects my feelings on this issue. I see divers at the park who really "shouldn't" be diving almost every weekend.[/QUOTE]
[/I]
I don't want to become the statistical noodge of this board -- but if you subjected the differences between 10 - 12 CA deaths, vs. the remainder distributed throughout the rest of the world -- it wouldn't reach statistical significance. A simple T-Test would show that this isn't a meaningful separation. The T-Test would have to include the number of non-fatal dives for each area (millions).

 

[shark.byte.usa]

Some good points Shark.Byte.usa.

Certainly IMHO a major part of the real responsibility rests with the agencies and instructors for newly certified divers. If they allow people who are unfit or unable to master the required skills to pass, they create a burden for others. And we know some agencies, LDS'es and instructors are too lenient in this respect.

I absolutely agree. My defacto buddy on my checkout dives, shouldn't have been out of the pool IMHO. I could go on and on about this nightmare, but I won't. He missed one of the dives because he couldn't equalize. I always wonder if he would have actually been certified had he been able to make that dive. Scary thought.

You would NOT have to pay twice "for diving." You pay once for the certification and once (or annually) to support the environment you dive in. Two different elements, two different payments. We pay to get a driver's license and we pay (through gas taxes, etc.) for the maintenance of the roads. Similar concept here.

Ok, Ok, I hear ya, I would rather it be a surcharge of some sort on say airfills rather than a license. Why because a license has to be enforced which takes money, needs to be issued and administered which takes money, all taking money away from the reason or cause of the license in the first place. Licenses suck for non-residents too.

As for panic, I agree that is something one can't always "train" someone for. Panic can even occur in an experiened diver. However, I think there would be a good correlation between a diver's frequency of diving and the ability to avoid panic.

I agree as well, but recertification will not help with the frequency of diving and the correlation with diving ability.

 

[drbill]

I feel that I have to chime in on Commercial diving. As stated above, the Paramedics visited Boats to effect health issues of Commercial divers. Well, maybe the term "Commercial Divers" are being used to cover anybody that straps on a SCUBA bottle or Hat and hose and gets paid for it.
Lots of People say that they are commercial divers by just cleaning boats or harvesting marine life. Some Divers are only trained in SCUBA, where Commercial Divers do attend classes from a Diving School for 8hrs/day for 6months. At Navy Diving School and at Commercial Diving School the classes were at least One Week each covering subjects like Marine Physics, Two weeks in Medicine, Three weeks of Saturation Diving ect....
The schools are much more advanced that just SCUBA. When some People group all the divers who get paid as Commercial Divers, I think there should be some concideration for the amount of training the Diver goes through in Real Commercial Diving Schools as opposed to a Basic SCUBA class. There has not been many Emergency Techs, or Paramedics called for Commercial Divers with training.
To add my Opinion to this topic though, I do believe that recerts are something that should be concidered. I have no problem to go through testing over and over again. We, that do dive for a living have to do Complete Diving Physicals that are more inclusive than Commercial Pilots do, Every Year. That too is part of the LAW. We are also required to have all dives logged and Signed by the Diving Supervisor. That is the law in Washington State as well as Oregon and California.
There should be the same requirements for sports divers as well. Same Physics same water. The Human Body is effected the SAME for Commercial Divers as well as Sport Divers.................My opinion............Bill Also, to "Scuba" I am very impressed! Your Opinion is well stated but, I do have to disagree..............

If you're refering to my reference to "commercial" dive boats, I meant the dive boats that rec divers use to go out on (they are "commercial" in the sense that they charge)... not ones for divers certified as commercial divers. I realize that reference was a bit vague. No question that true "commercial" certification is a very rigorous thing and prepares divers much better (as it is should).

 

[drbill]

So, why would you have a timed swim for recertification?

I think a (reasonable) timed swim test would be a better indicator of fitness than allowing "unlimited" trime for completion.

 

[drbill]

That I can answer. Except for getting fills in north Florida I haven't been into a dive shop since I closed my own almost 2 years ago. Until a couple of months ago I had my own compressor, in fact I think I had about the best equiped fill station in the state in my garage. LOL I have access to everything I need without ever stepping foot in a dive shop.

And of course an individual like yourself with your experience and your own fill station would hardly be one in need of recertification!

 

[drbill]

The fact is that the circus we get to watch at dive parks is, IMO, a direct result of the way the agencies approach dive instruction. They ARE the problem and will never be the solution...

It almost has to happen. you make it so any one can get certified with little effort or skill and the certification no longer means anything. If you spend some time at dive parks and on resort boats you'll quickly get the idea that no one can dive and they all need to be looked after...

You want people to be watched throughout their dive career and I want them trained right in the first place so they don't need to be watched. Having the agencies watch them is like having the fox watch the chicken coup! Like the RSTC..what an absolute joke. Its the big recreational agencies making standards for themselves! ...I'd pay real money to see what would happen if GUE were allowed to join. They might have expiring certs but they might fix it so they're not needed any more. LOL

Since I do a lot of my domestic diving at our park, that certainly has affected my perspective. Agree.

As for your comments on the state of current training regimens for many agencies, I also agree. Better initial training could solve much of the problem (but not the diver who gets way out of shape or doesn't dive in 5-20 years and tries to get back in). I know the training I received in the 60's from the Los Angeles County program was much more rigorous, and established a good baseline from which to learn through experience.

If GUE got involved more, we'd have a real "sticky" situation (that's a joke).