"Term limits" on certifications

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Boy, I feel as if my post counter is spinning like the electric meter attached to a factory with LOTS of heavy machinery!

One more important consideration. The woman who died left behind a 12-year old daughter (who, as I've posted, saw her mother die in front of her). Yes, the mother had personal responsibility for that. But I think we also need to consider the effects of an unnecessary diver death on the survivors (and I'm not referring to the reality show).

Another interesting statistic is that of the roughly 90 SCUBA-related deaths a year in the States, it seems about 10-12 occur here in Catalina waters. That suggests that the problem here (whether due to a greater number of divers in soCal, or more poorly-certified ones) differs from the rest of the country. I've heard talk that our local emergency personnel are concerned about the frequency of paramedic visits to the dive park (as well as picking up divers off private boats and occasionally "commercial" dive boats). I know it affects my feelings on this issue. I see divers at the park who really "shouldn't" be diving almost every weekend.
 
drbill:
I don't think you can get a SCUBA tank fill anywhere in the State (at a dive shop at least) without a C-card. I don't know if paintball shops have their own compressors
I don't know about socal, and I'm not a paintballer, but here they are one in the same, dive shops have the compressors and are more frequent than the couple specific paintball shops in town. You can walk in with a tank and get it filled for paintball, just by saying so. FYI, from what I understand paintballers use large tanks (i.e. scuba) to continually refill the smaller cylinders on their guns.

No question there would be ways to circumvent the requirements. I try to take people at their word.
Isn't that what started this thread in essence in the first place, you imply that we cannot take a person's word that they are able to dive, without proving it, by making a c-card expiration and a recert necessary.

If they pass the swim test (timed?), at least they exhibit some physical conditioning.
Agree'd so the burden of this should be placed upon the intructors to not certify people without the minimum physical fitness levels.

I don't want the government in this thread OR legislating recerts. However, license fees and taxes that we pay to the government for work they do or fund (scientific research or restoration or management) is OK by me. I see them as totally different issues. Certainly you can have it both ways- the government legislates certain areas but not others in almost everything we do.
I disagree with your reasoning, but that's ok. Personally I don't want to pay twice (at least) to be able to dive.

You still haven't answered my question....Where do you draw the line at recerts?? Who is going to pay for it?. Like I said, I don't disagree with the idea, I just don't see how it would work.

It's a shame that there are 90 (US) deaths a year, how many could be avoided by your suggestion, no one can really tell. Personally I don't feel any responsibility for the daughter's loss, sympathy yes. I have children, a son 12 and a daughter 9, and I take responsibility for myself to ensure that I will see them grow up, it's nobody else's responsibility to see that I do this. Not my cert agency, not the dive op, not my buddies and certainly not the government's. Yes there is risk, but if proper precautions are taken, by a responsible person, is it any more a risk than driving a car, flying a plane, climbing a rock, etc. I'm sure you get the point.

Now this is my opinion but I believe the majority of preventable scuba accidents are brought on by panic, getting a recert by clearing your mask, setting up your gear, etc. is not going to prevent many panic induced deaths.

by the way is there anymore information on what led up to this drowning on the surface?
 
Some good points Shark.Byte.usa.

Certainly IMHO a major part of the real responsibility rests with the agencies and instructors for newly certified divers. If they allow people who are unfit or unable to master the required skills to pass, they create a burden for others. And we know some agencies, LDS'es and instructors are too lenient in this respect.

You would NOT have to pay twice "for diving." You pay once for the certification and once (or annually) to support the environment you dive in. Two different elements, two different payments. We pay to get a driver's license and we pay (through gas taxes, etc.) for the maintenance of the roads. Similar concept here.

As for panic, I agree that is something one can't always "train" someone for. Panic can even occur in an experiened diver. However, I think there would be a good correlation between a diver's frequency of diving and the ability to avoid panic.

So far nothing official on the incident to my knowledge other than a three sentence press release by the Sheriff's Dept. I have heard talk of embolism, but that has not been confirmed.

Whew... time to go to bed! "Alone again... naturally."
 
Identify a problem: Dive accidents.

Proposed measure to reduce accident rate: Re-Certification program.

Analysis to help understand, determine the causes and offer suggestions.

We have identified some of the following causes here which have a propensity to lead to accidents.

1. Inexperience.

We need to realize that inexperienced people are more susceptible to make mistakes, less likely to promptly detect them, and less likely to recover from them, than experienced individuals, in any field. Gaining experience is an important, and largely the sole responsibility of individuals. There are various avenues available for the diver such as: dive clubs, buddys, guided dives, addtional classes, etc. Proceed with caution.

2. Insufficient skills competency.

While this is directly related to number one above, this is a primary issue affecting original certification. Is the newly certified diver sufficiently skilled to prevent most common problems, and if necessary overcome them shoud they arise during a dive? If the answer is no, this is an original certification problem which re-certifying with more of the same will not solve. As MikeF said so eloquently: Re-certify - what?

Undoubtedly skill improvement is also of primary importance to the diver, but the responsibility to assure the diver possesses an adequate level of skill competency to go off on his own rests with the certificate issuing agency.

The issue of detecting deteriorated skill proficiency is addressed below under periods of inactivity, even though this is not the only possible cause.

3. Insufficient physical condition.

The overweight problem has been overblown here. While doctors advise against being very overweight or obese, the important issue here is - adequate physical fitness for diving. Though related, this is a different issue than body weight.

Adequate physical conditioning for diving should be a consideration for certification. Right now, I believe the swim tests have more to do with demonstrating swimming ability than a minimum researched standard of fitness necessary for diving. I mentioned earlier how swimming with SCUBA requires a significant level of physical fitness, which may or may not be equivalent to what is necessary with the current swim tests. Anyone have any data backed by research? And as always, the individual bears responsibility. This is an area where re-certification or some type of periodic fitness test could be valuable. Then again, a log book demonstrating continued diving over long periods of time would generally denote the same point.

4. Insufficient mental aptitude.

Common sense. Discipline.
How many instructors judge mental aptitude necessary for diving? Let me clearly state that this has nothing to do with intelligence. I once helped out a friend by taking her out in my car to practice her driving. This is an intelligent professional person, however she had no common sense when it came to driving. To make a long story short, she persisted, got her license, got into multiple accidents, and finally had her license suspended. Should have never been licensed to drive in the first place. Good judgment and the discipline to practice it is both the responsibility of the certifying agency, in the form of proper assessment, and the individual, in the form of always striving to practice it. On a related issue, I think some agencies convey a dangerous mental aptitude by emphasizing the fun, safe, easy part of diving while de-emphasizing the negatives. At the very least a “real” picture should be presented with positives and negatives. I know, it’s not good for sales.

5. Long periods of inactivity.

Very infrequent or long periods in between dives.
This is probably the only issue where re-certification could potentially add some value. However, I see no meaningful value added by a program such as GUE’s. Why go through the inconvenience of showing them my log book and paying a fee if there is one, when I can just show it to a dive op or buddy who may want to take a look at it. I would like to know what GUE re-certification conveys beyond that which is equally conveyed by a dive log. What are the benefits to the diver? An honest question. The answer I see so far is none, excluding what is effectively the renewal of an expired license. There was a thread a while back addressing the meaning of certification vs licensing.

A refresher course could offer real value when there is a long period of inactivity, specially for the inexperienced diver. If nothing more, it will be useful in terms of getting some practice back in the water under professional supervision for those who desire it. I phrase it in this context because from experience the dive ops are only interested in covering their liability. Many couldn’t care less when your last dive was or who you buddy up with. No doubt some genuinely care. I just hate to see another faked trumped up impediment and expense placed on divers under the guise of “we care for your safety”. In terms of expecting anything else, its a case of if more of the same, then, you will get the same results.

Regarding the stamped log book idea. If you don’t pay to dive - then your dives don’t count. No, no.

I don’t think their is much evidence to warrant general re-certification, even though I think a case can be made for infrequent inexperienced divers. What we need is better certification courses, not only in terms of skill level standards, but also to provide the added benefit derived from a better informed and likely more responsible diver. An industry regulation already in place. Let’s face it, societies are built and function upon rules and regulations. The key is having fair and effective regulations when beneficial, I think most would agree, that overall, dive training certification is a positive development in this sport. As is tank inspections in order to get it filled. Training could be better, maybe tank inspections would be just as adequate every couple of years?

Regulations do not necessarily mean that restriction are all encompassing. They could mainly affect diving with commercial operators, as is the case now. Some cities have their own regulations. To avoid futher regulations, both industry internal and external, it is important to make existing regulations effective. Instead of proposing further regulations, putting our efforts into improving the existing one’s would go a long way in reducing the need for any further ones, voluntary or imposed.

PS. I think some here appear to fail to evaluate all the repercussions which result from personal actions, as well as the many interrelationships present. I also think some fail to understand that “ultimate reponsibility” does not necessarily mean “sole responsibility”.
 
I feel that I have to chime in on Commercial diving. As stated above, the Paramedics visited Boats to effect health issues of Commercial divers. Well, maybe the term "Commercial Divers" are being used to cover anybody that straps on a SCUBA bottle or Hat and hose and gets paid for it.
Lots of People say that they are commercial divers by just cleaning boats or harvesting marine life. Some Divers are only trained in SCUBA, where Commercial Divers do attend classes from a Diving School for 8hrs/day for 6months. At Navy Diving School and at Commercial Diving School the classes were at least One Week each covering subjects like Marine Physics, Two weeks in Medicine, Three weeks of Saturation Diving ect....
The schools are much more advanced that just SCUBA. When some People group all the divers who get paid as Commercial Divers, I think there should be some concideration for the amount of training the Diver goes through in Real Commercial Diving Schools as opposed to a Basic SCUBA class. There has not been many Emergency Techs, or Paramedics called for Commercial Divers with training.
To add my Opinion to this topic though, I do believe that recerts are something that should be concidered. I have no problem to go through testing over and over again. We, that do dive for a living have to do Complete Diving Physicals that are more inclusive than Commercial Pilots do, Every Year. That too is part of the LAW. We are also required to have all dives logged and Signed by the Diving Supervisor. That is the law in Washington State as well as Oregon and California.
There should be the same requirements for sports divers as well. Same Physics same water. The Human Body is effected the SAME for Commercial Divers as well as Sport Divers.................My opinion............Bill Also, to "Scuba" I am very impressed! Your Opinion is well stated but, I do have to disagree..............
 
drbill:
If they pass the swim test (timed?), at least they exhibit some physical conditioning.

Some or maybe even most agencies don't even require a timed swim test for initial certification. The RSTC certainly doesn't require it. PADI as an example only requires a 200 yard swim that can be done any style and there's NO TIME LIMIT. TThat's for OW. there's no swim test at all for AOW, rescue or any of the specialties. If I remember correctly there aren't even swimming tests required in their new technical courses. In addition the 200 yard swim can be replaced by a 300 yard mask, snorkle fins swim so you can pass without knowing how to swim at all.

the last sdwim tests of any kind I had to do was in IANTD technical courses and most were in full gear including stage/decompression bottles. Niether NACD or the NSS-CDS require swim tests for cave training either.

So, why would you have a timed swim for recertification?
 
drbill:
Here in California the LDS does the enforcing rather than the agency (and would largely have to under my suggestion, hence the rationale for them getting re-cert costs recouped. Of course the agencies would establish the standards.

I don't know how it is in other states. I've only dived Illinois (back in the early 60's when certs weren't an issue) and Florida (where all the dive ops I went with required my c-card, as I hoped). And in all the "Third World" countries I've dived (on four continents), I've been required to show my c-card... and if it wasn't "recent," they would request my log book evidencing recent diving experience (verified by a dive master which most countries I've been to have in the water when diving on their boats) or a check-out dive with their DM or instructor.

Wonder where everyone else has been diving that they find all this strange???

That I can answer. Except for getting fills in north Florida I haven't been into a dive shop since I closed my own almost 2 years ago. Until a couple of months ago I had my own compressor, in fact I think I had about the best equiped fill station in the state in my garage. LOL I have access to everything I need without ever stepping foot in a dive shop. The last time I was in the water with a DM was the last dive I did with my wife...I trained and certified her as a DM. The last time before that would have been while taking some recreational class way back when.

As for where I dive? I just throw the gear in the truck and head to Missouri. My favorite cave is a spring at the bottom of a lake that sits in the middle of the national forest. Most people don't know it's there and there certainly isn't any one around to check a c-card or a log book. Once we did have the DNR remind us that we needed a dive flag because that is law. They don't know or care about any c-card. This cave in something over 300 ft deep BTW.

I guess if some one took all my cards I'd be unable to get in the local quarry...go ahead, hurt me some more. You could pull all my cards and I'll bet I could still go down to North Florida and get any kind of fill I want and get the combination for the gate at my favorite site... a site owned by the NSS-CDS.

Around here? I still have about 10 tanks of O2 and helium in the garage, 3 sets of double full of 18/45 ready to go and several people in the area with compressors. So, what is a stupid dive shop going to regulate? Nothing where I'm concerned, I promise you. They likely wouldn't be able to figure out what's in my tanks let alone decide if I'm qualified to use it. LOL
 
drbill:
...
No question there would be ways to circumvent the requirements. I try to take people at their word.
...

We're back to, at a basic level, personal responsibility -- the integrity of the individual in knowing their own capabilities, not trying to stretch things beyond reason.

Does someone you're going with on dive X have a log book? Does it look reasonably current, and indicate that they are up to what the dive entails? If it's questionable, time for a checkout dive, to see.

Oh, my, sounds like current practice at the more conservative locales, all without any additional certs required :)

Someone unknown/new/rusty = see how they're doing, then learn the art of tact to suggest they need a refresher if they're totally off the wall. That's what people are already recommended to do. If someone is ignorant/over-confident enough to try to do solo, nobody else, without REALLY knowing what they're doing and their own condition, they're Darwin candidates. If a dive op chooses to treat the C card as good enough, even though it's written in hieroglyphics on a piece of papyrus, the dive log doesn't show activity since the original Woodstock, and the diver can't even climb onto the boat, so be it, both parties are willfully ignoring the warning signs. If a dive buddy sees his/her partner putting the first stage on backwards, dragging the reg in the sand, chit-chat indicates the buddy doesn't have a clue, ... and is unable/unwilling to simply thumb the dive (the karma is wrong today, sorry), so be it...

The above are all basic things -- no new regs/recerts in and of themselves required, it's about personal responsibility and decision-making.
(Govt. licensing would be a farce, thanks for trying to move things off that track. :)
 
drbill:
Boy, I feel as if my post counter is spinning like the electric meter attached to a factory with LOTS of heavy machinery!

One more important consideration. The woman who died left behind a 12-year old daughter (who, as I've posted, saw her mother die in front of her). Yes, the mother had personal responsibility for that. But I think we also need to consider the effects of an unnecessary diver death on the survivors (and I'm not referring to the reality show).

Definately something the agencies should give some thought to given all the 2 day courses that require a diver to little else but simple skills while kneeling. Teach people right in the first place and then get out of their shorts.
Another interesting statistic is that of the roughly 90 SCUBA-related deaths a year in the States, it seems about 10-12 occur here in Catalina waters. That suggests that the problem here (whether due to a greater number of divers in soCal, or more poorly-certified ones) differs from the rest of the country. I've heard talk that our local emergency personnel are concerned about the frequency of paramedic visits to the dive park (as well as picking up divers off private boats and occasionally "commercial" dive boats). I know it affects my feelings on this issue. I see divers at the park who really "shouldn't" be diving almost every weekend.

I've spent a lot of time at dive parks and I've witnessed many ämbulance runs and countless near misses. Interestingly a lot of these were AOW students who got into trouble doing their "deep dive". More of the agencies good work. You see after a students initial 4 OW training dives they can gor streight into their AOW and their 5th lifetime dive can be 100 ft dive in 40 degree water. Some of our own board members have run into trouble this way. One was a free flow and a resultant unintentional and uncontroled 160 ft/minute ascent by her, her buddy and the instructor. More of the agenciess good work! None of them knew how to handle a free flow or were ablt to control their buoyancy while doing so. I wouldn't have issued an OW cert to the instructor involved and you want those agencies and shops to supervise my certification status? Half the agencies around don't even teach free flow management and those that do, teach it wrong. Many of the accidents around here were triggered by free flows and the resultant lack of control, panic and rapid ascent. Again, I say that agencies just don't get it.

The fact is that the circus we get to watch at dive parks is, IMO, a direct result of the way the agencies approach dive instruction. They ARE the problem and will never be the solution.

It almost has to happen. you make it so any one can get certified with little effort or skill and the certification no longer means anything. If you spend some time at dive parks and on resort boats you'll quickly get the idea that no one can dive and they all need to be looked after. PADI is working on making "recreational technical diving" a reality too so pretty soon a trimix certification won't mean anything beyond that you can do 200 ft dives with a DM. Like I say, it's an agency created situation.

You want people to be watched throughout their dive career and I want them trained right in the first place so they don't need to be watched. Having the agencies watch them is like having the fox watch the chicken coup! Like the RSTC..what an absolute joke. Its the big recreational agencies making standards for themselves! As MHK pointed out barriers to entry are such that no organization who really knows diving can even get involved because they have it all sewn up. I'd pay real money to see what would happen if GUE were allowed to join. They might have expiring certs but they might fix it so they're not needed any more. LOL
 
Sorry Mike, but you're mistaken. PADI has no swimming requirement because they allow substituting a 300 yd snorkel. I could snorkel before I learned to swim. As a non-swimmer, I could've passed PADI's current "swim test."
 

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