"Term limits" on certifications

[mrobinson]

gotta disagree, 10th amendment:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

of course the debate over that one is endless, but IMO there's a right to scuba dive in that sentence.

How does G.W.Bush get away the terror bill?

 

[mrobinson]

Sorry to Troll... I was just trying to show how an American's idea of "because it's my God-dang right" seems to swing on either end of the debate, depending on point of view

 

[MHK]

gotta disagree, 10th amendment:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

of course the debate over that one is endless, but IMO there's a right to scuba dive in that sentence.

I am by no means representing myself as a constitutional legal scholar, nor do I play one on TV, but I'm hard pressed to accept that there is an unalienable "right" to scuba dive and driving an automobile is considered a "privledge", with all of the requisite government regulations associated with driving. But lets not digress into a constitutional foray because even if I accept the proposition that we do have a "right" to scuba dive, just as I have a right to free speech or to bear arms, is anyone suggesting that there aren't government "permits" associated with bearing arms? I know very little about firearms, but my understanding is that certain safety classes are required prior to exercising my "right" to bear arms. Moreover, try yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theatre, or shouting racial epithats to encite a riot, and then let me know how well your "rights" work. I'm about done with this thread because we're getting well beyond the scope of reasonable responses. I see little harm in c-cards that expire and the great thing about the marketplace, as opposed to government regulations, is that divers have choices. If you want c-cards that never expire then by all means go to the agencies that offer c-cards that never expire, and for those divers that appreciate the finer points that GUE offers, then by all means you know where to find us.. The great thing about "rights" are that they work both ways, I reserve the "right" to issue a c-card with my name on it to anyone that satifies and agrees to the terms and conditions of the agency of my choice.

Regards

 

[MikeFerrara]

Disagree with the first statement, especially since the dive buddies were largely assigned to me by boat operators (however, it was understandable that they would not let me dive solo). If a buddy's equipment fails because it was not properly maintained, or they disappear from sight in less than a minute and are located on land already dressed and ready to go drinking with some guys she just met (after I did the proper search underwater, went to the surface and returned to look for the "body" for 20 minutes), am I at fault? I think not, but that's just my opinion.

I understand that traveling alone and being paired up with unknown divers is a real problem but let me address this from the view point of how the buddy system should work.

First, while it's ok for some one to ask if they could join you or invite you to join them some one doesn't just assign you a buddy. Why? Because it's up to the divers whether or not the dive is a match for the team.

ok you decide to dive together. Now the work starts. The DIR guys have it easy here because they're all trained and dive pretty much the same. It is amazing how you can hook up with some one you've never met and be right in sink never having to look for the others or try to guess what they'll do. Every one else has to discuss every aspect of the dive from gas management to the position each diver will maintain.

ok you've planned and organized it but what about emergency procedures? Best talk about those and better yet practice them...at least as far as a modified safety drill but if you don't know the person best to do the whole thing.

What about the divers actual skill level? Well I'll dive with about any one as lonbg as the dive is appropriate for the combined skill level of the group. You take an educated guess sometimes and don't alweays hit the mark...I've been on both sides of that but the best is to do a simple get aquainted dive in an environment that is known to well within the teams capability. Notice how I say the teams capability because it eiither works or not. Every one does their job or some one else has to take up the slack. A seperation means that some one screwed up and some one else failed to take up the slack.

I left a ton of detail out but you don't just accept an assignment and expect to jump in and have a great dive because in the unlikely even that it works, it will be by luck not by design. If you agree to this in the first place then that was your mistake. Especially some one like you who knows from experience that it doesn't work.

I don't know what the answer is for the diver traveling alone. I guess there's solo diving and getting lucky and finding some one that you can really dive with. But...if you consent to a real dive with a diver unknown to you IMO you absolutly own the results every bit as much as they do. If they stink in the water it's still your responsibility. Fault? Who cares. Renewing certs won't help though because very few agencies teach real buddy diving...and you want those agencies to have authority over these poor divers that they so miss trained?

Last summer my wife and I were on the Great Lakes to dive the Vernon. We had planned to visit some parts of the ship (inside) that we had only skirted on earlier dives. We were asked if another diver could join us. I knew who his trimix instructor was, we talked a little, went through equipment matching, did modified s-drills before dropping and did the dive. As it turned out he had brought a new cammera and wanted to get some pictures and we agreed to do his dive. Except for his flash problems and spending more time on deck than inside, it went flawlessly. Max depth about 186 with a run time of about an hour. Notice here that his former instructor was running the boat and vouched for him to us and us to him. Oitherwise we'd have been doing a 30 ft quarry dive before ever doing a real dive.

The only problem was that my wifes suit leaked so she was too cold for a second dive and our new bud didn't have enough gas left. Darn!

Divers have to learn to buddy dive somehow and, for the most part, the agencies aren't doing it nor do I think they know how to teach it even if they were willing.

Do what you always did and you'll get what you always got...recertified or not.

 

[DennisS]

There are people in Florida that want to license divers to fund coral reef studies and marine enforcement. When this happens, if I pay my license fee, I'm licensed to dive in Florida. I'll have to renew my Fl dive license like I do my fishing license every year. Why will I need a certifying agency to give me permission to dive in the state of Florida.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I am by no means representing myself as a constitutional legal scholar, nor do I play one on TV, but I'm hard pressed to accept that there is an unalienable "right" to scuba dive and driving an automobile is considered a "privledge", with all of the requisite government regulations associated with driving. But lets not digress into a constitutional foray because even if I accept the proposition that we do have a "right" to scuba dive, just as I have a right to free speech or to bear arms, is anyone suggesting that there aren't government "permits" associated with bearing armsI know very little about firearms, but my understanding is that certain safety classes are required prior to exercising my "right" to bear arms. ?

I depends what you mean by bearing arms. It varries from local to local but in most states a permit is required to carry a concealed gun. I indiana no class is required. You simply go down to the sheriffs office and apply. They do a background check and you pay your money. There is no requirement that you ever even have to have touched a firearm before. If you want to carry a long gun in the field for hunting there is nothing. If you are eligable under federal law (not a convict or ajudged mentally incompetant you just pick up your gun and go man.

I don't know if it's been changed or not (I heard they added age restrictions) but I remember in texax when any one could just carry. I remember all the signs in restaurants reminding folks that it was against the law toi carry a gun into a place that served booz. Other states are that way with only individual cities having laws that restrict carry.

Some of you want more restriction on diving than guns I guess. BTW I got my first shotgun and started hunting with my father when I was about 12. Now that state does require a hunter safety course for hunters under the age of 16 but I never attended until I took my own kids to it.

Moreover, try yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theatre, or shouting racial epithats to encite a riot, and then let me know how well your "rights" work.

Not hardly comparable to going for a nice quiet dive is it? I think you'll find that inciting a riot, yelling "fire" or making false calls to emergency services are explicitly against the law and are act that are undeniably dangerous to others. You see the key word here..."others"? These are laws to protect other from you. The type of regulation you seem to want seems akin to communism. No offense meant to any communists here but we have chosen another way. One where we don't have to ask the former company we baught something from for training for permission to use it.

I'm about done with this thread because we're getting well beyond the scope of reasonable responses. I see little harm in c-cards that expire and the great thing about the marketplace, as opposed to government regulations, is that divers have choices. If you want c-cards that never expire then by all means go to the agencies that offer c-cards that never expire, and for those divers that appreciate the finer points that GUE offers, then by all means you know where to find us.. The great thing about "rights" are that they work both ways, I reserve the "right" to issue a c-card with my name on it to anyone that satifies and agrees to the terms and conditions of the agency of my choice.

Regards

Yes you have the right to RENT certifications. You do not at this time have the right to force me to rent. The kind of regulation you're talking about is worse than what the government would come up with. At least some in government know what's in the constitution and why it's there though they seem to need frequent reminders.

I have an idea. Lets play constitution and as a group elect some people to represent us in GUE management. Then our elected oficials can look at what kind of certification procedures would best serve we who voted them in. When can JJ, Andrew and the rest be prepared to step aside? Of course they won't but since they aren't a governing body (I couldn't even lobby them if I had the time and money) and they don't pay me a salery, niether they or any other agency is going to decide when I dive...at least not without a fight.

You're right, I know where to find GUE and all the other agencies. Other than some friendly conversation I'll thank them all to stay where they are and do nothing for me unless I decide I need something and call.

 

[shark.byte.usa]

I think the idea of government intervention in scuba diving is absurd based on the number of fatalities, as compared to what???

The risks and dangers of scuba diving are not well known among recreational scuba divers. Since 1970, the number of annual U.S. scuba diving fatalities has varied from a low of 66 to a high of 147. The real severity of the problem is masked by several unknown variables, having to do with the total number of divers.

First, the total number of active scuba divers is unknown. Estimates range from 1.5 to 3.5 million in the United States alone and therefore, valid estimates of risk using traditional methods are not possible. Fatality estimates range from a low of 2-3 per 100,000 to 6-9 per 100,000, depending on the number of fatalities and estimations of the number of active divers in a given year.

Now assumming my math is correct and based on these numbers, there is less than 1/1000th of 1% percent chance of a fatality, now I could expect this number to increase for more technical dives and decrease for more shallow recreational dives. And sure it could increase based upon frequency of dives by the diver and overall health of the diver. My point is, is not even a blip on the radar of the government.

To put it into perspective, where I live we have a problem with drownings (especially children), in the Phoenix Metro area alone in 2004 there were 67 fatalities, now owning a swimming pool or swimming for that matter are not government regulated, state regulated or county regulated, some cities have laws where safety fences are mandatory, but that's about it.

Now I'm not for or against expiration of C-cards, it's just not black and white, and the whole honor system would have to go away, the entire industry would have to change to accomodate this. I mean it's not even the law that you have to have a c-card to get an air fill is it? That's strictly a voluntary rule. I mean I could walk in and say I'm a paintballer and get an air fill, if that was the case.

That being said my driver's license is good for 34 years. I think driving is more dangerous an activity for me based on time & frequency of being in my car, along with number of hazards.

 

[MikeFerrara]

There are people in Florida that want to license divers to fund coral reef studies and marine enforcement. When this happens, if I pay my license fee, I'm licensed to dive in Florida. I'll have to renew my Fl dive license like I do my fishing license every year. Why will I need a certifying agency to give me permission to dive in the state of Florida.

This is openly just a tax though. Most of us don't like tax but at least it's honest in that you know they just want your money. No one is making the pretence that it's for your own safety. Tax is a pain but it hurts my brain way less than the idea that some training agency might take it upon themselves to become some kind of regulatory body.

The funny thing is that 99% of the diving I do in Florida is in caves. I've never seen a Florida reef and maybe never will.

 

[MHK]

The type of regulation you seem to want seems akin to communism. No offense meant to any communists here but we have chosen another way.

Mike,

You're usually a reasonable enough guy to understand, but I must admit I'm confused in this thread. I started out by saying that I want NO government intervention, and then you countered that to the extent that anyone did intervene it should be government so you could get a vote.

Near as I can tell, my position has been consistent in that I don't want government involved at all, I favor expiring c-cards and I reserve the right to put my name on a c-card issued in accordance with terms & conditions I agree with.

Can you explain anywhere where that is "akin to communism'?

 

[darylm74]

The last thing we want is for the government to be involved. I think it is personal responsibility to get a refresher and also a personal responsibility to know who you're diving with, whether it be your best friend or a person a person you meet on the dive boat. It is your responsibility to find out who you're diving with and ask questions (it is called communicating). If you don't feel comfortable with someone, discuss it with a divemaster. I have been on the cattle boats before and never had a problem. Another thing, don't judge people on first glance. The person who may be slightly overweight might be someone who outswims you. As I said earlier, I'm 240, 6'0 and most people might think twice but I am in the gym 5 days a week minimum (some weeks 6) lifting weights and running or on the ellipse machine.