"Term limits" on certifications

[drbill]

I mean it's not even the law that you have to have a c-card to get an air fill is it? That's strictly a voluntary rule. I mean I could walk in and say I'm a paintballer and get an air fill, if that was the case.

If I'm not totally misinformed, it is in California.

 

[drbill]

PULEASE... get the government out of this thread. My initial and subsequent posts said nothing about the government getting involved (heaven forbid), only enforcement by dive agencies. Why do we have to debate this issue?

I, for one, would be in favor of taxes/licenses or whatever it takes to properly fund research and restoration of coral reefs, establishment and enforcement of marine reserves, etc. Look at Bonaire (and many other "Third World" areas). Of course I would not limit their application to divers- boaters, fishers, jet ski riders and others all use the marine environment. Tax/license them too to ensure enough $$$ to do the job.

 

[DennisS]

What's the difference whether I pay PADI $25 to relearn how to clear my mask, use a snorkel and stay with my buddy or I go through a FL safety test, like hunting licenses. A bureaucratic control is trying to insert itself between me and my diving. I don't like it.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Mike,

You're usually a reasonable enough guy to understand, but I must admit I'm confused in this thread. I started out by saying that I want NO government intervention, and then you countered that to the extent that anyone did intervene it should be government so you could get a vote.

Near as I can tell, my position has been consistent in that I don't want government involved at all, I favor expiring c-cards and I reserve the right to put my name on a c-card issued in accordance with terms & conditions I agree with.

Can you explain anywhere where that is "akin to communism'?

Fair enough. I don't want the government imvolved and I won't do business with any agency that assumes any sort of regulatory role over customers.

I do think that instructors should be regularly checked up on in one way or another. They should stay current both in their dive experience and agency standards.

 

[MikeFerrara]

PULEASE... get the government out of this thread. My initial and subsequent posts said nothing about the government getting involved (heaven forbid), only enforcement by dive agencies. Why do we have to debate this issue?

What can the agencies enforce? There are no laws (for the most part) and we can do all the diving we want without any agency. I don't know why it's so hard to understand that once the class is finished so is my business with the agency. They don't employ me, I am no longer employing them and they are not any sort of regulatory body. If they do or we allow them to become regulatory boddies then it seems like regulation with no representation. It's just giving them unchecked authority and it's hard for me to even believe that any one could be in favor of it.

I, for one, would be in favor of taxes/licenses or whatever it takes to properly fund research and restoration of coral reefs, establishment and enforcement of marine reserves, etc. Look at Bonaire (and many other "Third World" areas). Of course I would not limit their application to divers- boaters, fishers, jet ski riders and others all use the marine environment. Tax/license them too to ensure enough $$$ to do the job.

Rest assured that if the government ever decides that the reefs are important enough to get a piece of the pie we'll be taxed. But...the last thing I need is more tax. You can't get blood from a turnup as they say.

 

[shark.byte.usa]

PULEASE... get the government out of this thread. My initial and subsequent posts said nothing about the government getting involved (heaven forbid), only enforcement by dive agencies. Why do we have to debate this issue?

I, for one, would be in favor of taxes/licenses or whatever it takes to properly fund research and restoration of coral reefs, establishment and enforcement of marine reserves, etc. Look at Bonaire (and many other "Third World" areas). Of course I would not limit their application to divers- boaters, fishers, jet ski riders and others all use the marine environment. Tax/license them too to ensure enough $$$ to do the job.

So Doc where do you draw the line?? Does every c-card expire without use?? Do you have to recert Nitrox? What if your AOW and haven't dived? Master? Who's going to pay for all the new c-cards with expiration dates on them? Wouldn't you have to do away with the honor system if expiration depending on diving?? Personally I think not all, but some and not a few would log a few dives to save themselves the hassle of taking a recert class and pay a fee. Maybe CA does have a law on airfills for scuba, but what about paintball? Like I said couldn't I walk in and get an airfill on a tank and say it's for paintball. Maybe I'd have a problem getting on a boat, but shore dives aren't regulated. Personally I think you'd be shifting some of the responsibility from the diver to the dive ops & LDS and padding the wallets of the cert agencies.

I don't think it's a bad idea, I just don't see how it would work. And as far as physical conditioning, you can't regulate that, if they could pass any agency swim requirements, there would be nothing you could do beyond that.

You say get the government out of the thread, and follow it up with "I, for one, would be in favor of taxes/licenses". I know what your saying but you can't have it both ways, by taxing or licensing your enevitably saturating our sport/hobby with government regulations, albeit state not federal, but what's the difference?

 

[MikeFerrara]

What's the difference whether I pay PADI $25 to relearn how to clear my mask, use a snorkel and stay with my buddy or I go through a FL safety test, like hunting licenses. A bureaucratic control is trying to insert itself between me and my diving. I don't like it.

Me niether. Some of these states are a joke...run down water with no fish in them and they want to charge you money to drop a line in. Just imagine if the guy who sold you your tackle were able to keep their hooks in you through your whole fishing career.

 

[drbill]

So Doc where do you draw the line?? Does every c-card expire without use?? Do you have to recert Nitrox? What if your AOW and haven't dived? Master? Who's going to pay for all the new c-cards with expiration dates on them? Wouldn't you have to do away with the honor system if expiration depending on diving?? Personally I think not all, but some and not a few would log a few dives to save themselves the hassle of taking a recert class and pay a fee. Maybe CA does have a law on airfills for scuba, but what about paintball? Like I said couldn't I walk in and get an airfill on a tank and say it's for paintball. Maybe I'd have a problem getting on a boat, but shore dives aren't regulated. Personally I think you'd be shifting some of the responsibility from the diver to the dive ops & LDS and padding the wallets of the cert agencies.

I don't think it's a bad idea, I just don't see how it would work. And as far as physical conditioning, you can't regulate that, if they could pass any agency swim requirements, there would be nothing you could do beyond that.

You say get the government out of the thread, and follow it up with "I, for one, would be in favor of taxes/licenses". I know what your saying but you can't have it both ways, by taxing or licensing your enevitably saturating our sport/hobby with government regulations, albeit state not federal, but what's the difference?

I don't think you can get a SCUBA tank fill anywhere in the State (at a dive shop at least) without a C-card. I don't know if paintball shops have their own compressors

No question there would be ways to circumvent the requirements. I try to take people at their word.

If they pass the swim test (timed?), at least they exhibit some physical conditioning.

I don't want the government in this thread OR legislating recerts. However, license fees and taxes that we pay to the government for work they do or fund (scientific research or restoration or management) is OK by me. I see them as totally different issues. Certainly you can have it both ways- the government legislates certain areas but not others in almost everything we do.

 

[ParamedicDiver1]

I guess, to me, one thing will not change...people will die while Scuba diving. People will die will driving their car. People will die jogging. Everything we do contains a certain amount of risk...everything. As divers, when we are trained, we are explained the risks of our hobby. We are entering a foreign environment and scuba gear is really just fancy life support equipment. Maybe we should focus on the initial training more, if we can inject a healthy amount of respect and awe for scuba diving, then maybe people will not take it for granted. I think THAT is what kills most divers, complancy and not respecting what they are really doing...visiting a foreign, alien environment.

Bottom line is we can not protect people from themselves even though the government tries...lol

 

[drbill]

What can the agencies enforce? There are no laws (for the most part) and we can do all the diving we want without any agency.

Here in California the LDS does the enforcing rather than the agency (and would largely have to under my suggestion, hence the rationale for them getting re-cert costs recouped. Of course the agencies would establish the standards.

I don't know how it is in other states. I've only dived Illinois (back in the early 60's when certs weren't an issue) and Florida (where all the dive ops I went with required my c-card, as I hoped). And in all the "Third World" countries I've dived (on four continents), I've been required to show my c-card... and if it wasn't "recent," they would request my log book evidencing recent diving experience (verified by a dive master which most countries I've been to have in the water when diving on their boats) or a check-out dive with their DM or instructor.

Wonder where everyone else has been diving that they find all this strange???