"Term limits" on certifications

[DiveGolfSki]

What does swimming have to do with diving? Sorry, let's be specific, swimming 200, 300, 400 yards is great training for the Ironman competition and may be useful in diving ONLY in certain situations (emergencies come to mind). Remember that in diving we consume breathing gas that contain nitrogen and leads DCI issues. If I'm in a situation that requires swimming (ergo fitness), I'm most often at the surface cause I wouldn't want to do all that swimming underwater (uses too much gases and loads me up with nitrogen).

Don't get me wrong. I understand the value of being physically fit to dive. I'm just not sure if swimming 400 yards is the right test for it.

 

[drbill]

What does swimming have to do with diving? Sorry, let's be specific, swimming 200, 300, 400 yards is great training for the Ironman competition and may be useful in diving ONLY in certain situations (emergencies come to mind)...

Don't get me wrong. I understand the value of being physically fit to dive. I'm just not sure if swimming 400 yards is the right test for it.

You raise a good point here. Swimming may only be a surrogate test for "fitness," and possibly not the best one. However, most of the rescues I've had to make have been divers who were unable to "swim" back to the stairs.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Sorry Mike, but you're mistaken. PADI has no swimming requirement because they allow substituting a 300 yd snorkel. I could snorkel before I learned to swim. As a non-swimmer, I could've passed PADI's current "swim test."

I mentioned that option. LOL, I guess now though we're going to include a swimming fitness test to the recertification. I predict that about 75% will fail to recertify because of the intended market and the low entry requirements.

 

[drbill]

2. Insufficient skills competency.

While this is directly related to number one above, this is a primary issue affecting original certification. Is the newly certified diver sufficiently skilled to prevent most common problems, and if necessary overcome them shoud they arise during a dive? If the answer is no, this is an original certification problem which re-certifying with more of the same will not solve....

3. Insufficient physical condition.

The overweight problem has been overblown here. While doctors advise against being very overweight or obese, the important issue here is - adequate physical fitness for diving. Though related, this is a different issue than body weight.

Adequate physical conditioning for diving should be a consideration for certification. Right now, I believe the swim tests have more to do with demonstrating swimming ability than a minimum researched standard of fitness necessary for diving. I mentioned earlier how swimming with SCUBA requires a significant level of physical fitness, which may or may not be equivalent to what is necessary with the current swim tests....

5. Long periods of inactivity.

Very infrequent or long periods in between dives.
This is probably the only issue where re-certification could potentially add some value....

A refresher course could offer real value when there is a long period of inactivity, specially for the inexperienced diver....

Regarding the stamped log book idea. If you don’t pay to dive - then your dives don’t count. No, no....

PS. I think some here appear to fail to evaluate all the repercussions which result from personal actions, as well as the many interrelationships present. I also think some fail to understand that “ultimate reponsibility” does not necessarily mean “sole responsibility”.

You raise many good points including ones I haven't quoted here.

Many (myself included) have raised the issue of inadequate initial training before. I think initial training should be more rigorous than what it seems to be today. This does not mean there is no good instruction occurring, there is. However there also seems to be some pretty bad instruction (and learning).

Agree on the "overweight" vs physically fit issue. As I've said, I categorize myself as overweight yet in very good physical shape. However, divers in the "obese" range are often not fit... and have been the victims of the majority of deaths I've seen here. I consider it an important issue.

The long period of inactivity was a major issue in triggering my initial post. I have had divers who hadn't dived in 15-20 years expect to go underwater with me when I work on the cruise ships as a biologist. To me this is a primary issue for recertification.

Although I mentioned stamped log books, this isn't really feasible here in the States or elsewhere since divers are often on their own (with a buddy or not). We often don't dive with a DM or instructor handy to stamp our log books. In fact, very few of my dives (30-40?) are logged with stamps. Although I mentioned a stamped log book for foreign dive travel, I wasn't actually considering that a requirement for the recertification criteria. Just a log book.

And your PS is right on the money IMHO.

 

[MikeFerrara]

What does swimming have to do with diving? Sorry, let's be specific, swimming 200, 300, 400 yards is great training for the Ironman competition and may be useful in diving ONLY in certain situations (emergencies come to mind). Remember that in diving we consume breathing gas that contain nitrogen and leads DCI issues. If I'm in a situation that requires swimming (ergo fitness), I'm most often at the surface cause I wouldn't want to do all that swimming underwater (uses too much gases and loads me up with nitrogen).

Don't get me wrong. I understand the value of being physically fit to dive. I'm just not sure if swimming 400 yards is the right test for it.

Lets take things one at a time. First of all breathing more will have no effect on your inert gas load. Heavy work after diving can adversly effect the way our bodies handle the inert gas already in our system by generating micro bubbles or seeds that can then grow because of our supersaturated state. It has nothing to do with how much we breath though. If it did dive tables would have to take RMV int account just as they do depth and time. The hoovers just couldn't use the same tables as every one else.

A dive that goes well should be pretty relaxing once your in the water. However when things go wrong as you state things can change. Currents can cause heavy work loads also.

Getting gear in and out of boats and up and down hills is probably usually the hardest part.

Swimming is to some extent a test of general watermenship although I've had students that were competition swimmers who were not the least bit comfortable under the water. It can be a test for fitness but I find that ones ability to pass a swim test has more to do with their technique rather than fitness. A good swimmer just won't work very hard doing it while a lesser skilled swimmer will work their butt off.

One thing that is VERY important is being able to control your breathing under heavy work or high stress. This is something else that's usually totally ignored in training. Every one wants a low RMV...don't matter. What we want is a dependable RMV and to be able to control breathin hence keep our buoyancy control even during high work and stress.

 

[drbill]

I mentioned that option. LOL, I guess now though we're going to include a swimming fitness test to the recertification. I predict that about 75% will fail to recertify because of the intended market and the low entry requirements.

Didn't realize that PADI doesn't require an actual "swim" test. Explains a few things in my mind. If you feel 75% will fail recertification based on that one point, that says a lot for a recert program IMHO.

 

[MikeFerrara]

The long period of inactivity was a major issue in triggering my initial post. I have had divers who hadn't dived in 15-20 years expect to go underwater with me when I work on the cruise ships as a biologist. To me this is a primary issue for recertification.

This is an issue for divers and the newer the diver or the more infrequent their diving the more of an issue it is. It's also covered in entry level training and I and every one else I dive with slip back into things gradually after a time away. I didn't do anything all winter so my next dive will not be to 300 ft. I'm about done with that anyway but I'll dust off the cobwebs with easy stuff and I'll do it without the help or advice of any agency.

But you still didn't answer my question about what would you do about divers with many certifications from many different agencies. What would the refresher look like and how would you handle the cross agency issue?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Didn't realize that PADI doesn't require an actual "swim" test. Explains a few things in my mind. If you feel 75% will fail recertification based on that one point, that says a lot for a recert program IMHO.

I think a high percentage would fail a timed test that tested fitness. The point is though that you can't redo something that you never did. I think it says alot for a REAL certification to start with. The better you are the longer you can lay off without problems. Any of the people I dive with could stay out of the water indefinately and they still wouldn't be anything that they'd need from any dive shop as far as a skills refresher. Now lets all kneel and flood our masks...LOL On the other hand the extremely marginal certifications that are handed out every day can't afford any backsliding but it's all realative.

 

[oceancrest67]

This topic has come up in other threads referencing the ease of todays certifications.

There is a line of thought that PADI has made it too easy to certify...basically mass marketing diving to a wider consumer demographic. This may be good in terms of niche markets (tourism, cruises and resorts etc) and employment, but bad in terms of sub-standard divers.

There is another line of thought that wishes for tougher certification standards with more rigid requirements...including physical fitness and conditioning.

From my personal experience, I have seen too many divers with poor standard skills. I have seen too many "instructors" that are out of shape teaching and practicing sub-standard skills.

I recently finished off my DM but I gave my instructor a marginal rating because I felt that he was knowledgable on the one hand, but lazy and out of tune on the other. I had to go through other instructors to finish off my DM.

 

[Walter]

What does swimming have to do with diving? Sorry, let's be specific

The ability to swim relates directly to a diver's self confidence when things start going wrong. Self confidence is a very important factor in preventing a panicked diver. The ability to swim is the foundation on which a diver's self confidence is built.