"Term limits" on certifications

[Walter]

And BTW those that are arguing about the individuals "right" to engage in unsafe activities that don't endanger anyone else but themsleves, may want to consider the feelings of the daughter and husband that watched the mother die in the incident that sparked this thread.

Sorry, but that's not a valid argument in my opinion. Stepping in to protect people from themselves is merely the first step in abdicating personal responsibility. This is the attitude (feeling a need to protect people from themselves) that leads to all the sillt law suits most of us want to eliminate. Draw the line here, stop trying to protect people from themselves.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Yes, I dive solo about 80% of the time. Statistically I am MUCH safer doing so. When diving buddied up, I have had an incident rate more than 20X that of when I dive solo... all due to the buddy.

No. If a dive team has a problem during a dive it's a team failure and you are as much at fault and carry the same responsibility as your buddy.

Perhaps a discussion on how to pick a buddy and get oriented on the same page with them is in order. Again with the statistics. Unless you have really done a huge number of dives with a huge number of buddies and at least use another divers to increase sample size or add some kind of control, this isn't going to make much of a statistacle study. Still, I'd like to look at your data and calculations though.

I certainly agree that any required refresher course should be reasonably priced and think the idea you propose to implement them is a good idea! It is certainly in keeping with what I had in mind.

Dr. Bill

What do you think is reasonably priced? At pool fees of $50/hour or so around here, Instructor time, and the inevitable agency fee for issueing the cert and tracking all this what do you think it would really cost? Keep in mind that right now it costs $20 or so just to replace a lost card and all they have to do is print and mail it.

Now keep in mind you're talking about making this mandatory. If it's worthwhile for shop/instructor it will be, at the very least, a thorn in the side of the diver. If it is to be truely inexpensive then somehow you got the idea that the agency can require instructors to work even cheaper than they already do.

 

[stoddu]

I am overweight but by no means in the highest statistical category, morbidly obese(muscle weighs more than fat). I'm also in outstanding condition for a person of my age (my lung capacity is 4X that expected for my age and body type). I keep in shape. I have outdived many buddies in their 20's and 30's (male and female). No, on that basis I'm in great shape for diving (at least so far).

Yes, I dive solo about 80% of the time. Statistically I am MUCH safer doing so. When diving buddied up, I have had an incident rate more than 20X that of when I dive solo... all due to the buddy.

As has been stated before in this thread, a diver out of shape or inexperienced often DOES put others in jeopardy if they are their buddy or put in a position to have to rescue them when something goes wrong (although hopefully those people are not "innocent" and "uninformed"). Others ARE potentially endangered.

I certainly agree that any required refresher course should be reasonably priced and think the idea you propose to implement them is a good idea! It is certainly in keeping with what I had in mind.

Dr. Bill

Dr. Bill,
That's my point, the statistics can be misinterpreted. I'm guessing that you are roughly 6' and 180 to 200lbs., which by current medical definitions would probably put you in the slightly overweight class (and personally I don't agree with the divisions) which on the posted statistics was the highest percentage individual category. You would probably prefer to lump all three individual obese categories together. Based on my reading on this board (especially Scubaluarel's post) I know that you are in excellent condition and an excellent diver, even though you are probably in the highest statistical age category.

Rescue divers are trained that the first rule is to take care of yourself. Access the situation and determine if it is safe to approach. They also teach you how to get away from a paniced diver. As far as buddies go, I'm going to determine if I feel safe to dive with a specific buddy. I'm not going to let a divemaster or boat captain put me with someone that doesn't seem to be capable. Actually, I probably won't go on a boat trip without a buddy unless I am in a class or with a club.

Yes, I agree that you are probably safer diving alone than most other divers in buddy teams, but others have their opinions as has been proven by the laws in Laguna Beach.

If I choose to dive when out of shape, or with a risky medical condition, as long as my buddy doesn't mind I should be allowed to dive. Personally, I would rather die enjoying life than in a nursing home at 80 years old.

p.s.
Dr. Bill,
I don't want you to think that I am slamming you in any way. However, I just disagree with you on this subject. I enjoy most of your posts and you are a great asset to this board.

Steve

 

[radinator]

If the sport is going to be regulated I want it to be government. At least then I get to vote. The idiot agencies don't let me do that.

Do you really think that? With agencies, you have more power (and a more effective vote) than you ever have with government - your dollars. You can choose to go to another agency.

With government, you have no choice whatsoever. You are forced to comply. And if you don't like it, you can vote once ever 4 years, for all the good it'll do you. But you still have to comply.

 

[MikeFerrara]

And BTW those that are arguing about the individuals "right" to engage in unsafe activities that don't endanger anyone else but themsleves, may want to consider the feelings of the daughter and husband that watched the mother die in the incident that sparked this thread. The mother certainly had the "right" to dive since it didn't endanger others, but to the extent it could have been prevented by a simple requirement of a refresher course, I say go for it. Bear in mind I'm not familiar enough with the facts in the instant case, I'm just going by what was posted so far in this thread.

If we can't trust this person to make reasonable decision about her own diving and her need to be here to care for her own children it seems that the only choice we have is to outlaw diving completely because it will never be 100% safe. Of course then she just would have went rock climbing or something. What kind of licenseing and restrictions do think should be placed on rock climbing?

Lastly, and I don't mean to point you out specifically since it's a comment I hear often, but your position is an extremely paradoxical position. On the one hand, it's clear you recognize the need for training in the abscence of continued diving since as you said "The FIRST thing I did was take a refresher course." [emphasis added on FIRST]. Obviously, you recognized the importance and took prudent action, but when facing the possibility that such prudent action is codified, or required, in some fashion you took just the opposite point of view and turned it into a "rights" issue. I find discussions like this truely informative because I see it all the time. You clearly know that the underlying concept is the better course of action, and you even went so far as to undertake that very course of action, but if an agency required it of you, all too many see it as some type of an infringement of a "personal freedom".. I find it fascinating talking to other divers.. Oh well..

Regards

It most absolutely is a rights issue. I can scubadive, ride dirt bikes, ride horses, climb rocks or whatever as I see fit. You are free to disaprove of how, why or when I do any of them but if you step in and try to stop me we' won't friends any more. LOL

 

[stoddu]

An instructor should be able to make a reasonable amount of profit with 6-10 students in the pool for maybe 3 hours at $25 a pop. The out-of-pool time could mostly be covered with a video and a quick question and answer session.

Parents die in front of their children. Whether it be in a car accident, a heart attack at the side line while refereeing a kid's soccer game, choking at dinner, it happens. It's sad, but it happens. Some of those situations are more dangerous than what happened in the case that started this thread. I believe Dr. Bill made a correction in a later post that the divers involved were experienced.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Do you really think that? With agencies, you have more power (and a more effective vote) than you ever have with government - your dollars. You can choose to go to another agency.

With government, you have no choice whatsoever. You are forced to comply. And if you don't like it, you can vote once ever 4 years, for all the good it'll do you. But you still have to comply.

What I really think is that forced recertification is so rediculouse as to be beyond description and personally I'd give up diving or just take all my diving underground first.

 

[MikeFerrara]

An instructor should be able to make a reasonable amount of profit with 6-10 students in the pool for maybe 3 hours at $25 a pop. The out-of-pool time could mostly be covered with a video and a quick question and answer session.

around here a poll will run $50/hour so for 3 hours and six students it just pays for the pool. How about air, instructor pay, the classtime and video you mention and agency fees. As I said it costs that much just to replace a lost card. The agency isn't going to track this stuff and re-certify for free.

BTW, when was the last time you saw an agency video? Do you really want people diving that way? LOL

 

[DennisS]

Why people think responsible adults need to have an agency monitor them for life is beyond me. They were trained, the factors affecting the diver were explained to them.

They can go skiing, white water kayaking, drag racing, solo round the world sailing, mountain climbing, base jumping, backpacking third world countries and free diving without someone regulating them. Doing a 60 foot freedive needs no regulation, doing a 60 foot tank dive requires that they be monitored by an agency. Makes no sense.

They are adults, they were trained to do a task, they know if they are rusty, they know the risks, they accept the risks.

 

[mxracer19]

Heres a newsflash. MOST people in the US are overweight. Overweight is classified as 0-15 lbs over your target weight based on height and age. Overweight people are everywhere. Chances are, YOU are overweight. Fat people make the world go round. You will never get rid of fat people. Id rather be an educated and proficient diver than a thin diver.

-Matt