Tank failing Visual, shop condemned the tank?

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

Hi Mike? It's Chris from the dive shop. I have some bad news, we just did the VIP on your tank and it failed. If you want to drop by we can show you what caused the failure, or we can email you some pictures showing it. There are a few options here, we can give you back the tank so you can get the scrap value, we can take it and get it scrapped for you and we'll give you a 75% of the scrap value as a store credit. The last option is the most fun, you know that scuba tank bell you liked by the service counter? We can cut your tank in half and you can make a bell or we'll even make it into a bell for you for only $40 so you can hang in your man(or woman) cave or bar. yeah, we hate when these fail as well.

In the mean time, if you were planning to dive it this weekend or whatever, grab one of the shop tanks and we'll only charge you for the fill and not rental fee. You really should come outt his weekend, I just bought the brats we are gonna be BBQ'ing.

Thanks Mike, see you Friday!

THIS! Communication is they key.

 

[Bob DBF]

Better off buying VIP sticker from eBay and doing inspection yourself.

And I'll bet you wonder why some divers take your advice.

As for the release, I'll deal with a shop that uses my willing cooperation rather than one that could use a peice of paper to increase sales.

The $10 shop monkey in my last shop was PSI-PCI trained, but seemed to have a better customer service attitude, never even brought up a release to get a VIP done. Because I was interested, he explained and showed me what he was looking for and why. It has helped when I have bought second hand tanks, as well as put me on his side when he told me it was time to take a tank out of service.


Bob

 

[Justin Bove]

Hi Mike? It's Chris from the dive shop. I have some bad news, we just did the VIP on your tank and it failed. If you want to drop by we can show you what caused the failure, or we can email you some pictures showing it. There are a few options here, we can give you back the tank so you can get the scrap value, we can take it and get it scrapped for you and we'll give you a 75% of the scrap value as a store credit. The last option is the most fun, you know that scuba tank bell you liked by the service counter? We can cut your tank in half and you can make a bell or we'll even make it into a bell for you for only $40 so you can hang in your man(or woman) cave or bar. yeah, we hate when these fail as well.

In the mean time, if you were planning to dive it this weekend or whatever, grab one of the shop tanks and we'll only charge you for the fill and not rental fee. You really should come outt his weekend, I just bought the brats we are gonna be BBQ'ing.

Thanks Mike, see you Friday!

I agree with you. I'm actually a really nice guy. I will tumble your tank as part of a visual inspection service, O2 clean your cylinder and valve as part of visual inspection service, replace o-rings, replace burst disks, make sure everything is properly torqued to spec, and finally give you a detailed print out with photo's of what was preformed on your cylinder and valve. If I had to remove a Nitrox sticker I replace it without charging you. I will go out of my way to inform you on everything about to be done and eventually done. Since there is a large liability on my part the lawyers have advised me to make the cylinder unable to hold pressurized air if determined unsafe. Even though you sign a wavier excluding me from responsibility, your family will sue me, the fill operator hurt will sue me, and anyone else that thinks they can make a buck. I whole heartily agree it's sucky to do to someone's tank. I wish I could simply call and say hey it failed and let you do whatever you want with it. But the sad truth is that we live in a world where people will sue for everything and anything. The lawyers have told me it's way cheaper to settle a lawsuit of the value of a tank then to settle a lawsuit where someone is injured. To be completely honest I've never done visual inspections as a way to make money. I only do them for people I know or people recommended by someone I know. I became a certified visual inspector because I was almost killed from a new cylinder I bought and supposedly had been o2 cleaned and visually inspected with VIP sticker applied from the shop. The tank had bromine or chlorine inside and was caught before I dove. After that I made sure I controlled who serviced my equipment.

 

[rsingler]

Since there is a large liability on my part the lawyers have advised me to make the cylinder unable to hold pressurized air if determined unsafe.

I think your lawyers are wrong. I don't think there is a regulatory requirement to condemn a tank from a VIS.
Whether I am correct or not, I think that if your customer were required to sign a form stating that they acknowledge that you recommend the tank be condemned, before they were allowed to retrieve their property, you would be covered.
Or if you were absolutely sure of your position, you could use the form AND "XX" across the DOT stamp, but not drill a hole in the tank. It's a cinch your customer might be upset, if you don't communicate like Chris, but they're less likely to go postal if you leave them an option.

 

[Justin Bove]

And I'll bet you wonder why some divers take your advice.

As for the release, I'll deal with a shop that uses my willing cooperation rather than one that could use a peice of paper to increase sales.

The $10 shop monkey in my last shop was PSI-PCI trained, but seemed to have a better customer service attitude, never even brought up a release to get a VIP done. Because I was interested, he explained and showed me what he was looking for and why. It has helped when I have bought second hand tanks, as well as put me on his side when he told me it was time to take a tank out of service.


Bob

A piece of paper doesn't increase sales, and someone's willing cooperation doesn't mean squat when getting sued for everything you are and will be worth. You should especially know that living in California. My comment on "Better off buying VIP sticker from eBay and doing inspection yourself." was meant in reference to "goober inspecting your tank" remark. If you feel that an incompetent "goober" or "monkey" is inspecting YOUR life enabling cylinder then...yeah do your own inspection and buy a VIP sticker off eBay. As other users have commented a visual inspection isn't legally required and no government agency has defined what a visual inspection requires, only hydro is required per DOT requirements.

 

[cerich]

I agree with you. I'm actually a really nice guy. I will tumble your tank as part of a visual inspection service, O2 clean your cylinder and valve as part of visual inspection service, replace o-rings, replace burst disks, make sure everything is properly torqued to spec, and finally give you a detailed print out with photo's of what was preformed on your cylinder and valve. If I had to remove a Nitrox sticker I replace it without charging you. I will go out of my way to inform you on everything about to be done and eventually done. Since there is a large liability on my part the lawyers have advised me to make the cylinder unable to hold pressurized air if determined unsafe. Even though you sign a wavier excluding me from responsibility, your family will sue me, the fill operator hurt will sue me, and anyone else that thinks they can make a buck. I whole heartily agree it's sucky to do to someone's tank. I wish I could simply call and say hey it failed and let you do whatever you want with it. But the sad truth is that we live in a world where people will sue for everything and anything. The lawyers have told me it's way cheaper to settle a lawsuit of the value of a tank then to settle a lawsuit where someone is injured. To be completely honest I've never done visual inspections as a way to make money. I only do them for people I know or people recommended by someone I know. I became a certified visual inspector because I was almost killed from a new cylinder I bought and supposedly had been o2 cleaned and visually inspected with VIP sticker applied from the shop. The tank had bromine or chlorine inside and was caught before I dove. After that I made sure I controlled who serviced my equipment.

yeah, I think your earlier post came across a wee bit anti consumer friendly, even understanding where you are coming from having been that guy in the shop before.

Regards stickers on the tank... I always find that a funny one, some folks like their sticker collection and will get upset if you remove them, most shops don't, yet a proper visual will mean they all come off. While some things that is common in the industry around tanks is a scam (bring back at 500 or pay for a VIP, pay for a VIP separate from the hydro and a few others), removing all stickers/decals on the tanks IS VERY important if you are doing a proper VIP and under those stickers is where corrosion can hide and grow fast, and is even where I have seen people cover up DEEP dings that would lead to a VIP failure on ALM cylinders.

 

[cerich]

A piece of paper doesn't increase sales, and someone's willing cooperation doesn't mean squat when getting sued for everything you are and will be worth. You should especially know that living in California. My comment on "Better off buying VIP sticker from eBay and doing inspection yourself." was meant in reference to "goober inspecting your tank" remark. If you feel that an incompetent "goober" or "monkey" is inspecting YOUR life enabling cylinder then...yeah do your own inspection and buy a VIP sticker off eBay. As other users have commented a visual inspection isn't legally required and no government agency has defined what a visual inspection requires, only hydro is required per DOT requirements.

we could have a whole new thread on perceived liability, regulatory liability, codified and non codified "best practices" in the industry. Part of that conversation should actually even talk about how much sneaky liability shift is put back on instructors and shops and presented to them as "best practices" when in fact they are anything but.. but I digress

 

[Justin Bove]

yeah, I think your earlier post came across a wee bit anti consumer friendly, even understanding where you are coming from having been that guy in the shop before.

Regards stickers on the tank... I always find that a funny one, some folks like their sticker collection and will get upset if you remove them, most shops don't, yet a proper visual will mean they all come off. While some things that is common in the industry around tanks is a scam (bring back at 500 or pay for a VIP, pay for a VIP separate from the hydro and a few others), removing all stickers/decals on the tanks IS VERY important if you are doing a proper VIP and under those stickers is where corrosion can hide and grow fast, and is even where I have seen people cover up DEEP dings that would lead to a VIP failure on ALM cylinders.

I might come off being anti customer because don't really deal with customers. I've been around when a customer went crazy on an employee for a failed tank. It was steel and had a huge dent and gouges. It looked like it fell out of a car or truck on the highway. Anyways it left a really bad taste in my mouth on how crappy customers can be. Oh and you are 100% right about the less then 500 PSI scam! If a tank has 50 PSI it's perfectly fine to fill without need for VIP.

 

[Bob DBF]

A piece of paper doesn't increase sales...

Depends on how it is used, I've run across some underhanded businessmen over the years.

...and someone's willing cooperation doesn't mean squat when getting sued for everything you are and will be worth.

It does when the bad tank goes out of service, which I thought was the objective. Of course not working with customers changes the dynamic, and I agree, from experience, that retail can sometimes become a sh*t show.

And yes, in California, you don't have to be involved to be sued.



Bob

 

[Griffo]

Just be glad you don't live in a country with Annual hydro's required.