kelpmermaid
Contributor
On a certain other bulletin board this morning, there is a thread addressing why it is that attractive women don't dive...:upset:
Subtle sexism among instructors
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I'd like to know who (Man or woman) is attractive with salty hair, drippy nose, a thick wetsuit, & a bulky weightbelt? Musta been one of those guy who thinks "beautiful" (magazine-style) women are born with professional make-up & hair-do's. (And I'd LOVE to see a picture of HIM!)
:whack:
:whack:
Jarhead
Contributor
There is no such thing as an "un-attractive" woman. Or said in another way...
"All women are beautiful, some just more than others."
Jarhead
kelpmermaid
Contributor
I think you're both right on target!
landlocked
Contributor
Hum.... I think you need to quit meeting men in bars and get to know some men that are truly secure in thier own masculinity, not some macho impersonation therof. "Freedom is knowing who you are" and liking yourself. Your view of men (I realize that you have exagerated a bit) actually makes me quit sad.
It is not fair to call all men macho creeps anymore than it is fair to call all women coniving gold-diggers. Many dudes are actually quite chivalrous. They still deserve to opt out of any activity that frightens them or makes them uncomfortable without being called "sissy." And by the way, there is something sexy about a person who does not worry so much about how glamourous they look for the sake of adventure!
I love it when a man wants to lift my tank because the fact is I can't do it. I don't want to do it. I haven't encountered any kind of sexism for a couple of years while diving, but I do recall back in Ireland once being totally ignored by a couple of rambo type guys who were so macho it was farcical. I didn't laugh at them then but by God if I met divers like that now I would fall about laughing at them. I'm out to have a good time and guys with issues are definitely of minor concern to me. Just not relevant. Thankfully I feel experienced enough now to not feel intimidated by those guys who 'know' everything or who have to be 'in control', because I imagine for a beginner female diver they're hell. I've nothing to do with them now and I certainly won't buddy with them. Haven't met any in ages anyway. Only nice guys 
booga_roo
Guest
To be honest. I'm old enough now and confident enough in my diving to ignore the male prats on the boat.
In defence of the guys I have shared boats with women who are simpering idiots and the men feel obliged to help them out. Most blokes I dive with now are decent guys.
However, on balance. Macho prats with so much extraneous gear they can hardly stand but an ego so inflated they still need 40 lbs to get down are currently in the majority compared to simpering barbies.
In defence of the guys I have shared boats with women who are simpering idiots and the men feel obliged to help them out. Most blokes I dive with now are decent guys.
However, on balance. Macho prats with so much extraneous gear they can hardly stand but an ego so inflated they still need 40 lbs to get down are currently in the majority compared to simpering barbies.
Went to a forum this weekend featuring one of the authors of a book about women & diving. The author I heard from was a woman instructor who had been working with another woman instructor teaching women, men, & couples. Wow. Here were some concepts (filtered thru my own mind, so don't hate her if u don't like my distillation):
1) Most "womens'" diving issues are "size" issues (ie coldness, weight/buoyancy, air consumption); a tiny person gets cold faster than a large on just like ice cubes freeze faster than a bucket of water. A small man with less muscles will get cold just as fast as a woman his size. A person with higher body-fat than muscle will need to carry more weight whether male or female. A person with small lungs will breathe les air in the amount of time it takes a big-lung person to breathe more. An AL 63 seems big & heavy to anyone who is small already; a steel 80 seems workable to anyone with the body proportions & strength to lift it.
2) Menstrual blood does not contain the ingredient that attracts sharks, & with the use of a tampon, the quantity reaching the water is too small to be noticed.
3) Early studies that showed that women were more prone to DCS than men were based upon reports from military nurses (on the women's team) & professional divers (on the mens' team). Later studies (which showed very little difference) were based on exams by doctors, not the opinion of the diver, who could be invested in a macho or cautious mindset. The big spread in difference was with VERY expereinced men & VERY inexperienced women (both groups were at the highest end of DCS incidents; the conclusion being that the newbie girls were often following boyfriends into waters they were not comfortable with, then shooting up due to buoynacy troubles; the old salts were getting careless.)
4) The qualities that make a good diver are not sex-specific. In fact, the socialized qualities of patience & attention to detail have made women desireable in the field of underwater welding. Women, however have a much higher drop-out rate than men after certification due to family structure (ie who takes care of the kids, feeling unattractive after gaining weight, having unpleasant experiences following around a boy-friend/husband buddy.)
5) Preganancy as a contraindication: the subject is always addressed as if women who know they are pregnant are making a choice to dive or not; an issue seldom addressed is, "What if you have been on a diving vacation for a month then get home & find out u r pregnant?" (For those whose morals allow) Is abortion a wise choice if the high likelyhood of a deformed child is unacceptable to the couple? This author said no - there is no good reason to abort based on this fear alone; lots of kids born to actively diving pregnant people are fine. The lack of studies on actual human subjects keeps this issue murky enough to simply warrent the highest amount of caution to be on the safe side.
I just had to share this with the participants in this thread. Like I said, this is just my re-cap, & even I need to read the book in full. I hope that as the percentage of women entering OW calsses reaches 50% that we can work on issues of intersex communication in diving. There are many suppositions we carry around about how we differ or don't differ which keep us from reaching helpful strategies of getting past socialization. We can't change an individual's personality, but if we get some insight into motives & let go of cookie-cutter expectations, diving may actually facilitate mutual understanding. I would like that.
1) Most "womens'" diving issues are "size" issues (ie coldness, weight/buoyancy, air consumption); a tiny person gets cold faster than a large on just like ice cubes freeze faster than a bucket of water. A small man with less muscles will get cold just as fast as a woman his size. A person with higher body-fat than muscle will need to carry more weight whether male or female. A person with small lungs will breathe les air in the amount of time it takes a big-lung person to breathe more. An AL 63 seems big & heavy to anyone who is small already; a steel 80 seems workable to anyone with the body proportions & strength to lift it.
2) Menstrual blood does not contain the ingredient that attracts sharks, & with the use of a tampon, the quantity reaching the water is too small to be noticed.
3) Early studies that showed that women were more prone to DCS than men were based upon reports from military nurses (on the women's team) & professional divers (on the mens' team). Later studies (which showed very little difference) were based on exams by doctors, not the opinion of the diver, who could be invested in a macho or cautious mindset. The big spread in difference was with VERY expereinced men & VERY inexperienced women (both groups were at the highest end of DCS incidents; the conclusion being that the newbie girls were often following boyfriends into waters they were not comfortable with, then shooting up due to buoynacy troubles; the old salts were getting careless.)
4) The qualities that make a good diver are not sex-specific. In fact, the socialized qualities of patience & attention to detail have made women desireable in the field of underwater welding. Women, however have a much higher drop-out rate than men after certification due to family structure (ie who takes care of the kids, feeling unattractive after gaining weight, having unpleasant experiences following around a boy-friend/husband buddy.)
5) Preganancy as a contraindication: the subject is always addressed as if women who know they are pregnant are making a choice to dive or not; an issue seldom addressed is, "What if you have been on a diving vacation for a month then get home & find out u r pregnant?" (For those whose morals allow) Is abortion a wise choice if the high likelyhood of a deformed child is unacceptable to the couple? This author said no - there is no good reason to abort based on this fear alone; lots of kids born to actively diving pregnant people are fine. The lack of studies on actual human subjects keeps this issue murky enough to simply warrent the highest amount of caution to be on the safe side.
I just had to share this with the participants in this thread. Like I said, this is just my re-cap, & even I need to read the book in full. I hope that as the percentage of women entering OW calsses reaches 50% that we can work on issues of intersex communication in diving. There are many suppositions we carry around about how we differ or don't differ which keep us from reaching helpful strategies of getting past socialization. We can't change an individual's personality, but if we get some insight into motives & let go of cookie-cutter expectations, diving may actually facilitate mutual understanding. I would like that.
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