Touching Female Cave Students By Consent: An Instructor's Perspective

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I'd like to revisit something I referenced in my original post in passing.

I don't like to be touched.

I have never suffered any sort of trauma or abuse (as far as I can remember, anyway); I just don't like being touched. It freaks me out and makes me extremely uncomfortable. And yet people assume it's just hunky-goddamned-dory to come up and hug me all the time. Hello or goodbye or whatever. It's icky. I really don't like it.

If someone is going to touch me at all in any way I would like to be informed so I can emotionally prepare myself for it.
Again, mine is not the reaction of a trauma survivor. But as an instructor with a modicum of empathy I figure it's worth the accumulated 5 minutes of quiet, private conversations with each student about their personal space to make sure everyone has the best class possible.

Roger,

I DGAF about some of the criticisms stated here. While I'm not a cave diveryl/instructor, my job of whatever course I teach is how to minimize the stress experienced by my students to maximize the speed and depth of their learning. All within reason defined by me. And each instructor will have a different definition of what is reasonable.

It really is that simple for me.

 

[Tom_Ivan]

TLDR version: You might want to delete that post. It makes you sound like a dick.

Thanks. I think its ok as it wasn't an attack on anyone in particular. I'll leave it in as it may have encouraged some discussion from people that may not have wanted to speak up otherwise.

...If a student has a problem with it, the time to discuss/contextualize is day one minute one so issues can be discussed and resolved...

I would go further and say that a problem needs to be discussed before day one.

..... I don't like to be touched.

I have never suffered any sort of trauma or abuse (as far as I can remember, anyway); I just don't like being touched. It freaks me out and makes me extremely uncomfortable. And yet people assume it's just hunky-goddamned-dory to come up and hug me all the time. Hello or goodbye or whatever. It's icky. I really don't like it.

If someone is going to touch me at all in any way I would like to be informed so I can emotionally prepare myself for it.
........

I believe that you are in the minority. At least in western society. Hugging seems to be more and more common.
It is fine that you go above and beyond to consider female students personal space in your courses. Its your course so more power to you! However this shouldn't be expected from other instructors. By the time anyone gets to cave diving, we all know how handsy some of the courses can be. A student who is going to be uncomfortable with this needs get into contact with the instructor early. Not expecting the instructor to make allowances for them without being informed.
I say that just because someone is female doesn't mean they need special treatment.

 

[Seaweed Doc]

To the male instructors, are you also as concerned with female dive buddies?

I understand the concern of instructors with sexual harassment claims, we have similar issues in medical care (even same gender exams) but if it gets to the point where you are hesitant to do what needs doing in a cave course, that’s concerning.

To answer your question, not so much. My female dive buddies have been trained for the situation we're diving in. If touching is required in that scenario, they are already aware of how it's going to go down and shouldn't be too surprised. (I do go over a few things if it's a new buddy, male or female, to make sure we're on the same page. Specifically, weight locations and expected response of a buddy to an out-of-air situation. Also, a general "anything weird about your rig I should know about?")

It's students that don't know what to expect that are more concerning.

Interesting you bring up medical. Decades ago I first had a female primary care doc. No problem, I'm a hip modern male. However, decades later after having had several over the years, I'm finding that many female docs, especially younger ones, just don't seem at ease with a male patient. Never had one ask me to "turn my head and cough" if you know what I mean. Besides that specific case, many just seemed ill-at-ease which doesn't do a lot to inspire confidence. Not that I haven't had ones who were awesome and treated me no differently than a male doc would have. Even so, when asked if I'm ok with a female doc I do hestitate these days where I wouldn't have in the past.

I'd note that this doesn't apply to the female docs who've treated my kids. (I have a son with multiple medical issues, so we see a lot of docs regularly, most of whom are female.)

I'd also add that for whatever reason I've not noticed the same pattern with nurses or various "med" techs.

 

[uncfnp]

To answer your question, not so much. My female dive buddies have been trained for the situation we're diving in. If touching is required in that scenario, they are already aware of how it's going to go down and shouldn't be too surprised. (I do go over a few things if it's a new buddy, male or female, to make sure we're on the same page. Specifically, weight locations and expected response of a buddy to an out-of-air situation. Also, a general "anything weird about your rig I should know about?")

It's students that don't know what to expect that are more concerning.

Interesting you bring up medical. Decades ago I first had a female primary care doc. No problem, I'm a hip modern male. However, decades later after having had several over the years, I'm finding that many female docs, especially younger ones, just don't seem at ease with a male patient. Never had one ask me to "turn my head and cough" if you know what I mean. Besides that specific case, many just seemed ill-at-ease which doesn't do a lot to inspire confidence. Not that I haven't had ones who were awesome and treated me no differently than a male doc would have. Even so, when asked if I'm ok with a female doc I do hestitate these days where I wouldn't have in the past.

I'd note that this doesn't apply to the female docs who've treated my kids. (I have a son with multiple medical issues, so we see a lot of docs regularly, most of whom are female.)

I'd also add that for whatever reason I've not noticed the same pattern with nurses or various "med" techs.

That’s an interesting observation regarding female docs. I can’t think of any reason why this would happen.

 

[cerich]

I think most of the responses here are forgetting the point of a cave class. Its to teach you how to not die in a very dangerous environment.
Gear adjustment (especially in sidemount) is often done under water, Hopefully the instructor will be videoing the changes and can show you later. You cannot simply ask the student to do this themselves.

Here are a few exercises during cave course;

• Returned along the complex line course with mask blacked out maintaining
  line and buddy contact.
• effectively retrieve line without masks .../... whilst buddy
  breathing from a regulator supplied by another diver for a minimum of
  40 metres.
• Maintained adequate buddy contact through the use of tactile signals while
  negotiating the five line placements with mask blacked out.

Regardless of gender, a student who cannot be touched cannot pass the course. These students need to fix their issues prior to the course.

I don't see where it says the instructor must touch the student. If the instructor is being the buddy, then yes of course (and is suboptimal instruction IMHO)

Gear adjustment should be sorted in CW first, further finetuned in OW and before entering a cavern or cave if you get in and it's messed up. Where the student can ask for help or the instructor can offer help with consent vs just manhandling the students gear (as I have seen done many times) without even a word first. Frankly, doing so is poor instruction, even if it is making everything go faster.

I completly disagree with the premise that the instructor can't ask the student to adjust their gear themselves, unless somehow their cave instructor intends to dive every cave dive that student ever does for the rest of their life as some type of cave butler/lifeguard/personal assistant

 

[FF / EMT]

I don't see where it says the instructor must touch the student. If the instructor is being the buddy, then yes of course (and is suboptimal instruction IMHO)

I think what everyone is asking, is it ok to give a slight slap on the ass for a good job. Lol

 

[blueskies_up_ahead]

This is not exactly what the initial post was about, but the only time I have been touched in a way that looking back was unnecessary and inappropriate (but at the time just made me furious), was when a guide on my first dive post certification held my hand the whole time because my buoyancy control supposedly wasn't good (strange, as on the next dive the guide commented on my good buoyancy).
With a bit of knowledge and more confidence, I have kind of established a rule of "don't touch my gear", esp. my valve, but the reason is safety.
I'll be doing my rescue training next weekend, so I'll see how that goes. But even before signing up, I was well aware that that course would include a fair amount of physical contact. I'm more worried about my drysuit seals and my back But I also thankfully have no history of physical abuse and am not a "no touch" kind of person.
Generally, I like the idea of a proper pre-dive briefing that includes a little warning with regards to touch. Doesn't hurt to do that and ask if the person is ok with it.

 

[100days-a-year]

Even 30 yrs ago, my wife's instructor took time to explain the nature and reasoning of any potential physical contact and asked her comfort level.
Some of the women I've dove with were athletes and used to being in close physical contact but I always clear up boundaries.
All these types of conversations need to happen any time you're not sure be it gender specific, PTSD or traumatic injury, missing or damaged limbs, colostomy or ileostomy et al and ad nauseam.
Bad enough to potentially offend someone but worse yet to accidentally injure one.

 

[rjack321]

Spent the weekend vertical (dry) caving with various young women (young enough to be my daughters). They by and large adjusted their own SRT harnesses. A few times I commented on how they should adjust something differently and they changed it themselves and learned in the process. A few times it was required for me to get my fingers in there to fiddle with something they either couldn't reach or couldn't see or both. They knew what I was doing ahead of time and my hands didn't linger. It's not that hard to skip being a perv.

 

[Boarderguy]

Spent the weekend vertical (dry) caving with various young women (young enough to be my daughters). They by and large adjusted their own SRT harnesses. A few times I commented on how they should adjust something differently and they changed it themselves and learned in the process. A few times it was required for me to get my fingers in there to fiddle with something they either couldn't reach or couldn't see or both. They knew what I was doing ahead of time and my hands didn't linger. It's not that hard to skip being a perv.

Too cold to dry cave around here... that and the every present risk of Rainier removing a few hundred thousand of us from its presence keeps me clear of her cracks.