Subtle sexism among instructors

[art.chick]

The woman who spoke at the Long Beach Scuba Expo is the author of "When Women Dive," and her name was Ella Morgan. She has a co-author, Erin O'Neill (who was not there on Sat.) I would swear this is who Capnvik meant. She gave a great talk.

 

[Dea]

I think it is less gender and more of an image problem.
As in other activities, a young, fit and self-assured woman is much easier acceped into the group than an older overweight one.
It is about stereotyping in a way.
If a woman conforms to the concept of "cool" than her presence does not take away from the romantic/dangerous image of diving guys(well, and to be honest girls too) like so much.

However if a woman is not sporty, looks/behaves like their mother... than that image of diving is compromised, and some guys are annoyed at that.

 

[Damsel Fish]

Originally posted by Dea

However if a woman is not sporty, looks/behaves like their mother... than that image of diving is compromised, and some guys are annoyed at that.

I'm an older female divemaster but I have found that I get along very well with the young guys (20's and 30's) in the classes I assist with. Guess they feel safe with "Mom" around. I don't think that I have ever had a problem with any male student (or female either) while I was helping with a class. At least, not from a sexist angle.

 

[art.chick]

There are some older, less starlette-like women who break the mold (especially if they are in authority), but Dea's point is one I had not considered in this context, & deserves more thought.

Diving is not the only place, of course that the presence of an older woman breaks the sexy image of the activity. In my art classes, for example, the middle-aged ladies are immediately written off as aimless retirees trying to fill lonely hours by doing bad portraits of their grandchildren, while the youthful males are treated as potential hot-shot illustrators. The instructors create self-fulfilling prophecies in many cases, leaving the ladies to languish over frustrating design problems while jovially indulging the boys with lots of hands-on advice. It does my heart good to see "Granny" get a hot job with a big studio! (Althought there are the occasional stereotypical grannies who demand way too much time in class, lowering the overall professional focus.)

In recreational diving, most OW students won't make their careers in the sport, but are the teachers showing more interest in potential peers & protogee's? Instructors vary in age & sex, but I would be interested in how many of either sex or any age choose to focus on the jocular young men? They have a lot of energy & are impossible to ignore. (This has been proven in school classrooms) Does the presence of a "mom" make boys feel uncomfortable about cussing & telling dirty stories? Does the whole group feel responsible for protecting her? Does everyone presume she will be slow & clumsy & hold them all back? Is there a cultural indocrination with women over 35 that makes us seem overly questioning & tentative to younger men?

It seems there are more layers to subtle discrimination than I had thought. We can't force people to change their gut reactions, but if we unerstand them, we can perhaps learn to work around them or thru them. Keep 'em coming!

 

[Damsel Fish]

I have never been treated in anyway other way than with respect for my experience and training.

All the students (male and female) seem to find it easier to approach me with a question than the instructor. Again it may be the image thing, Mom can take care of things. But thats what I'm there for as a divemaster, to help the students, to be extra eyes and ears for the instructor and to be an example of what a "good" diver should be.

Seems to me, if you are confident of your knowledge and abilities (and you deserve to be confident) and you project that confidence in your actions and words, then you will be treated with respect.

Let me qualify that. There are always gonna be some jerk who will treat no woman with respect, but you just gotta consider the source and go on from there.

 

[DonnaS]

I work in Law Enforcement and I'm a old broad to boot ! I've
seen alot of change with regards to sexism. Is it still around ?
Yes, but it's alittle more subtile.
I believe alot of how woman are treated has to do with the way they carry themselves. It doesn't mean you have to "act" like a man. It just means you have to be confident and strong yet are able to listen. I just hate it when those men, who will never change, think of you as being a "*****" when your assertive and men as being confident and strong doing the same thing.
My diving time has been great fun and have found the men I've been around to be helpful and fun. I think again, it's all about how you carry yourself. I don't like woman who feign helplessness. It's so demeaning.
I like this thread.......Woman do have brains !! =-)

 

[art.chick]

I really enjoyed your contribution, especially as a professional Law Enforcement person. Re: the "acting helpless" thing, yes, there are some girls who are still raised to believe that they are not competent & that the best way to keep competent people close at hand to save them is to be REALLY obviously uncapeable. This is mentioned in my leadership manual, that frightened students often overplay their helplessness to gain the reassurance that they will not be abandoned. The cure: Make sure they know they will not be abandoned.

I have also seen "helpless" girls covering for an equally insecure husband in OW who pretends to be staying close to her to protect her when what he really seems to need is to be close to the source of help for himself. It sounds crazy, but he gets to stay "macho" looking while she whines for 2! Again, more of a cultural thing than a true gender variation.

 

[jonnythan]

Originally posted by Dea
I think it is less gender and more of an image problem.
As in other activities, a young, fit and self-assured woman is much easier acceped into the group than an older overweight one.
It is about stereotyping in a way.
If a woman conforms to the concept of "cool" than her presence does not take away from the romantic/dangerous image of diving guys(well, and to be honest girls too) like so much.

However if a woman is not sporty, looks/behaves like their mother... than that image of diving is compromised, and some guys are annoyed at that.

That is one of the most insightful things I've ever read.

 

[finstotheleft]

CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG???

I personnally don't care if you're man, woman, gay, straight, black, white, purple, pocka-dotted.....I just want to go diving!

I'd strap scuba gear on my cats if I thought they would be competent dive buddies!

Most of the time I've found that if you're a good person, treat people like you want to be treated, and you give a good honest effort, most people can't deny you your credit.

This 'women's only' board should be changed to 'women's issues'. Coming from a woman diver...I'm already seeing it create too much division, and it's getting on my nerves.

Let's just dive folks!

Get off the :box:

 

[Amanda]

Finsontheleft (what a pseudo... )

I think you're right, but the fact is that I've worked on a dive center in july and had to leave the place because of machism. It was just impossible to stand.
I did good job (this, I was told by the big boss ut: ), but the male DMs were just ugly wit me. That may be because I'm 20 (and have quite a nice pair of breasts but I've been talking with female customers and DMs who told me they were completely sick of it.

So it IS a reality... but diving will always be a pleasure, may the Male divers be gentlemen or not...