Standardized Prices?

[DaleC]

Cost is what kept me away from the GUE/UTD/DIR pathway.

When I measured how much of my diving would fall under that umbrella, and how much that umbrella would cost, I couldn't justify it. Perhaps I could cover fundies for some skills but after that what would I be: The poor shmuck trying to keep up with a team that makes $1500 a day, spend $250 an hour for horse lessons and buy $1500 dollar fishing rods, and can't see the gap that exists. It would be a suck a$$ experience for me.

And I don't buy the high cost of qualifying as a justification for fees. It cost me $20,000 for my diploma to do Physical Rehab, plus time not working while attending class and a 500 hour unpaid practicum. I get paid just over $22/hr. and I think I get paid pretty good compared to some other people I know. Gareth's $1500 a day is what some people make in a month on minimum wage. Thinking it's no biggy to drop $1000's for what others are charging $100's is elitist, considering the economic situation of many.

It sort of begs the question: If you are just wanting to ride horses and not do dressage, do you need expensive instructions. If you just want to fish, do you need an expensive pole. And, if you just want to dive recreationally, do you need expensive courses. That's why it's a hard sell to the average Joe's who aren't keen on caves and depth. They actually have to weigh cost/benefits more than those who are just spending disposable income.

 

[Cyprian]

Cost is what kept me away from the GUE/UTD/DIR pathway.

When I measured how much of my diving would fall under that umbrella, and how much that umbrella would cost, I couldn't justify it. Perhaps I could cover fundies for some skills but after that what would I be: The poor shmuck trying to keep up with a team that makes $1500 a day, spend $250 an hour for horse lessons and buy $1500 dollar fishing rods, and can't see the gap that exists. It would be a suck a$$ experience for me.

And I don't buy the high cost of qualifying as a justification for fees. It cost me $20,000 for my diploma to do Physical Rehab, plus time not working while attending class and a 500 hour unpaid practicum. I get paid just over $22/hr. and I think I get paid pretty good compared to some other people I know. Gareth's $1500 a day is what some people make in a month on minimum wage. Thinking it's no biggy to drop $1000's for what others are charging $100's is elitist, considering the economic situation of many.

It sort of begs the question: If you are just wanting to ride horses and not do dressage, do you need expensive instructions. If you just want to fish, do you need an expensive pole. And, if you just want to dive recreationally, do you need expensive courses. That's why it's a hard sell to the average Joe's who aren't keen on caves and depth. They actually have to weigh cost/benefits more than those who are just spending disposable income.

I typically avoid posting in threads of this sort, as I do not consider it my position to defend GUE/DIR, etc. I certainly know that I am not asked to...

That said, I key in on Dale's final point. I'll skip the horses and go to the fishing and follow up with long range rifle shooting as a point of comparison.

The question was: "If you just want to fish, do you need an expensive pole?" Not really, yet I carry a $500 rod and reel combo down to the TX gulf twice a year. Why? Beyond the fun factor, I was sitting on those fishing piers and jettys casting out my $30 Wal-Mart Saltwater Special feeling pretty good about myself. Then the guy shows up with a custom rod, Avet reel and out casts me by more distance than I care to share. I won't even mention how much larger the fish were that he pulled in...depth of water, cleanest of water, etc. But I struck up a conversation with him. He wasn't elitist, he wasn't aggorant at all. He told me his story and it mirrored mine. You want the bigger fish, you have to get your bait out there where they are. Simple. That cannot be done on the TX gulf coast with a $30 setup, unless you want to kayak your bait out.

Second story: Precision rifle shooting. While I could write a few paragraphs on this, I'll make it simple. Custom rifles are the best, I have a few, but optics and the skill of the shooter would be where it's at, so to speak. The skill of the shooter plays well into this; however, before someone brings up the skill of the diver analogy, let me say this....you cannot hit what you cannot see. A $100 rifle scope will in no way out perform a $1700 scope. Can you get the performance from a $700 scope.....close, but you start shooting 1000 yards, no...no way. I compare optics to telescope optics. There is a reason you can buy a $1000 120mm refractor, but the best are typically $5000 Apo refractors.

So why do I buy $1700 scopes for my long range rifles? I think the point is made. Do you need this scope? Maybe not. It all depends on what you want to do. And that is the gist of this thread for me. What do you want to do and what are your comfortable with?

Me. I had no problem paying for Fundies....which kicked my ego driven backside into a rec pass to start. I got the tech pass and went on to Cave 1. That's where a lot of things started clicking......so now I'm signed up for Cave 2. The price? I'll echo a lot of others in the thread....I consider it a bargain for the education that I am getting. If you want me to teach you my trade, for 6 days (Cave 2) the price would be similar, if not higher. Point being: I valve an educator's time. And no, I do not intend to start a silly flame war, ignorance war, or egotistical war with that statement. Education me and I will pay you for your time. A lot of my continuing education classes cost a lot more than a GUE diving class.

Anyway, I've stated my part and I'll leave this thread at that, other than to answer any specific questions.

As always, safe diving to all!

D

 

[TSandM]

Dale, I hear you. And I don't do those clinics very often!

Where the analogy breaks down is that you can learn to ride well enough to enjoy riding your horse a lot, without spending those sums. You have to be obsessive to feel that those investments are worth it, because the incremental improvement is small. And to be honest with you, I no longer do such clinics, as I have concluded that the return on investment is not enough for someone with my limited talent.

On the other hand, I think diving is like skiing . . . you have a dream of what it will be like, effortless and smooth and graceful, and the reality falls a bit short. You keep training, hoping that you'll find the entrée to the magical realm where you ski like Jean Claude Killy, and it keeps not happening. You enjoy skiing, but it's awkward and frustrating, not liquid and lovely. Eventually, you either find someone who can help you understand how you need to change what you are doing, or you quit.

Diving is much the same. You have an image in your mind of weightlessness and grace, and you go underwater and flap and flail and feel anything but elegant. You take more classes, hoping it will improve, but you are taking classes from someone who himself does not have those skills, so he cannot teach them. Or he has them and doesn't know how he got them, and has nothing more to offer you than, "Dive more, and it will get better."

It won't. Practice doesn't make perfect; practice makes permanent whatever you are practicing.

One of the saddest posts I've ever read on Scubaboard was from someone who had done a week on Grand Cayman with Guy Shockey and his dive buddies. He posted about how elegant and effortless and seamless their diving was . . . and then he wrote that that kind of diving was not possible for him. He felt as though this diving would require more than he could invest, and what this thread is about is the money that forms one of the barriers. And it's real. I dive with a lovely man who works in my ER, who loves being underwater and tries very hard to do well, but the cost of replacing the BC that is seriously impeding his progress is beyond him. A $3K diving class would just make him snort . . . he's not going there. But if he could, he would get instruction that would improve his diving, bringing him closer to that graceful ideal, and also make him a better and more desirable dive buddy. He can't, and will never be able to afford it.

What he has is me. I can pass along some of what I have learned, but I am not Danny Riordan or JP Bresser . . . he will not get the education, in content or communication, that he would get from people who have been both trained to bring folks to that level, and who are constantly assessed as still being able to teach with that degree of competence.

I can't defend the high prices of the tech classes. All I can say is that, if I could scrape the funds together, I would take them. Excellent instruction from beautiful divers who are actively diving at the level you want to achieve is worth something.

 

[Cyprian]

.....

I can't defend the high prices of the tech classes. All I can say is that, if I could scrape the funds together, I would take them. Excellent instruction from beautiful divers who are actively diving at the level you want to achieve is worth something.

That, right there!

I said I wasn't really coming back into the thread, but Lynne says this and so quickly and eloquently makes my point....so I had to come back. I will pay for instruction and have no problem doing so...yet, I can point you to my diving history and tell you about many years when I could not afford diving, let alone any type of instruction.

The old cliche "You get what you pay for" rings every so true. Are there some not as expensive as GUE that are great instructors? Steve Lewis and Edd Sorenson immediately spring to mind. Of course there are, but I choose GUE, just like I choose Avet Reels over Shimano....I choose Nightforce scopes over Leupold. Point being: My choice. I would hope that you would not dog me for my choice. It's my hard earned money that I budget for scuba diving, and I'll spend it where I wish...and I certainly won't tell you where to spend yours. You might just choose a BMW over a Chevy Cobalt, heh?

 

[DaleC]

Cyprian,
I don't argue your point. If you want bigger fish, or longer shoots, you need better equipment. In that regard I think the GUE/UTD/DIR pathway fits those who want to pursue bigger, more committed diving. And we all know those dives are going to cost. The hard sell is very expensive courses for basically.. recreational diving. If that is the level one aspires to (and a lot can be done there) then the cost is pretty hard to justify.

At some point we have to decide just what form is worth. Is this the goal of diving, or is function? If one can function appropriately for the conditions then additional form is a personal desire, not a need. Someone buys a $1500 flyrod for form, not function.

Lynne,
Not everyone has that negative experience diving. I have only taken OW (and a pretty lame AOW right after) but feel I have progressed to become a fair rec diver who feels both graceful and capable underwater. I don't know if practice makes perfect (I don't aspire to that) but it does make competent if you have half a brain and learn. All a class does is condense that learning into a package with an instructor. Great, if the price justifies the content or I don't care about price. Otherwise, I learned to frog kick from the internet, gas planning from Lamont's rock bottom page, neutral buoyancy from vintage diving and relaxed movement from shooting video and other photographers. It just took longer and more dives and reviewing myself in my own videos.

But, as much as the courses cost, I also considered where I would be after them. I would be in a small group of divers who mainly thought in terms of technical diving and all the buzz discussions would be about big dives (which I can't currently afford). Eventually I would be left behind by my cadre and relegated to shallow safety diver status due to lack of training and equipment. No canlight, no scooter, no argon, no He etc...

Good training is always a good thing. Hard to argue that. But it also has to be accessible to the group one is targeting. High prices fit the tech diving paradigm and the people who pursue it but not the rec diving paradigm. You can be a little more blue collar, and successful, there. That's the problem that DIR faces when it tries to be all things for all people. You either have to be exclusive if you want to remain tech oriented, or watered down if you want to be rec oriented. We see this fracturing/non fracturing being played out in the directions UTD and GUE are taking. I think dir makes the most sense when it is "sold" as a very effective and safe way to do technical diving - which is what it was intended for. It carries a lot of excess baggage when it is marketed towards the bottom end of the spectrum because so little of it is geared for that level. Your paying tech prices for a rec experience.

As to people dropping out of diving because of poor experience, I wonder how many people jump into fundies training only to drift away after a time because the regime doesn't really reflect the direction in diving they actually want to pursue. Sometimes they are told to take fundies, just for the skills, but that is like eating only half the meal. We all know the true value of the regime is adopting it holistically.

 

[ucfdiver]

But, as much as the courses cost, I also considered where I would be after them. I would be in a small group of divers who mainly thought in terms of technical diving and all the buzz discussions would be about big dives (which I can't currently afford). Eventually I would be left behind by my cadre and relegated to shallow safety diver status due to lack of training and equipment. No canlight, no scooter, no argon, no He etc...

I think this is where perception parts ways with reality. My wife is GUE trained with zero expectations of ever going tech. A few dive buddies in South Florida took fundies because it let them gain stability to get better photos and video.

When you eliminate all the rich Europeans coming to FL for cave training and dropping >$5,000 on the class and expenses, it seems like Fundies only GUE divers might even be the majority rather than the minority.

 

[LiteHedded]

I think this is where perception parts ways with reality. My wife is GUE trained with zero expectations of ever going tech. A few dive buddies in South Florida took fundies because it let them gain stability to get better photos and video.

When you eliminate all the rich Europeans coming to FL for cave training and dropping >$5,000 on the class and expenses, it seems like Fundies only GUE divers might even be the majority rather than the minority.

this is a class brand new gue instructors are charging 850 dollars for. 1000 in mexico. do you think it's worth that? (you do not)

my tech 2 cost me about 13 times what I paid for my previous trimix class. was it 13 times better? no. it was a great class, but 13x great? i dunno dude

 

[charlier]

Dale, I hear you. And I don't do those clinics very often!
On the other hand, I think diving is like skiing . . . you have a dream of what it will be like, effortless and smooth and graceful, and the reality falls a bit short. You keep training, hoping that you'll find the entrée to the magical realm where you ski like Jean Claude Killy, and it keeps not happening. You enjoy skiing, but it's awkward and frustrating, not liquid and lovely. Eventually, you either find someone who can help you understand how you need to change what you are doing, or you quit.

As a former ski professional and DM, it my feeling that skiing and diving are not that similar. The ski racing analogy is not appropriate - it takes much talent, ambition, and lifetime of full- or near-full time training to reach national or international level of skiing. If one learns to ski at 45 years old (similar to my wife, a talented athlete), that skier will never learn the necessary muscle memory or skills to ski in all conditions, terrain or weather. That said, the bulk of the skiing public still has fun. Few ski instructors, at a PSIA Level 3, are not really able to ski steep slopes with marginal conditions or effectively ski a challenging or technical course. But they are still effective ski instructors. Most skiers do not need instruction at a national coaching level. Similarly, many divers do not need training from Danny Riordan or JP Brewster or even at a GUE standard.

Diving is much the same. You have an image in your mind of weightlessness and grace, and you go underwater and flap and flail and feel anything but elegant. You take more classes, hoping it will improve, but you are taking classes from someone who himself does not have those skills, so he cannot teach them. Or he has them and doesn't know how he got them, and has nothing more to offer you than, "Dive more, and it will get better."

Scuba is a way more accessible sport than skiing. As far as I can tell, GUE was designed to support underwater exploration within the farthest reaches of the aquatic realm (adapted and modified from the GUE mission statement). Most recreational divers can learn a lot from this training, but I am not sure that one needs to take Fundies in order to dive with grace and skill.

I think that the DIR/tech community might give more credit to mainstream dive instructors. Some instructors have decent dive skills and have the ability to teach those skills. A few weeks ago, I was a DM for a group of four, with two divers that just purchased a new kit (everything was new, including a BCD with an integrated inflation/deflation system). They had very poor buoyancy, trim, and gas consumption. After five dives and a bit of coaching, they had much better buoyancy and were beginning to work on their trim. With more time underwater and coaching, I suspect that they will begin to get the feeling of effortless diving, better gas consumption, and proper trim. Many divers are not interested in tech diving, nor learning how to perform delicate frog kicks. Perhaps, mainstream agency dive instructors or DM’s might benefit from a Fundies class.

 

[TSandM]

I don't just think there are other good instructors out there -- I KNOW there are, because my husband is one of them! In our area around Seattle, we have a lot of good non-GUE instruction, and a lot of those instructors have had GUE or UTD training, and brought the ideas they got there back to their own teaching efforts.

I'm quite sure that there have always been people who had pinpoint buoyancy control, superb situational awareness, and great buddy skills. GUE doesn't have a monopoly on those things at all! But Dale, you describe an incremental process of obtaining your skills, and charlier, you talk about people getting a little better after five dives of coaching. What Fundies does is jump start this process -- in the course of the class, you get advice on how to optimize your gear to make your underwater life easier; you get some really clever and capable instruction on propulsion techniques. You get a superb visual model for how it looks when it's good, and you get a taste of what it's like to dive with a really good buddy team.

Do you have to take this class to get those things? Absolutely not. But you can get there quicker -- as a friend of mine says, Fundies makes a 20 dive diver look like a 100 dive diver. They still need seasoning and experience to be solid, but they've got a big step up on the process.

Dale, I do hear you about the "tech versus rec" thing, though. One of the things I bemoan and keep trying to change is the idea that this kind of diving is only for technical folks. I'm a critter diver. I like caves, and I will dive them as long as I can, but outside of that environment, I dive to see the life, and most of my dives are pretty shallow. I got my tech cert to go photograph cloud sponges, which I did, and enjoyed. But for the most part, the cool stuff to look at in the Pacific Northwest isn't below 100 feet. But I do have dive buddies who share this. We have superb photographers and critter folks in our GUE Seattle group, some of whom have no intention of ever getting any more training or strapping on their body's weight worth of gear to go down and look at gravel in the dark. I'd like to see more of those folks in our community, and in fact, in our communities around the world. That won't happen as long as people believe, as you do, that they will be left out or left behind if they don't aspire to "big" dives.

 

[PfcAJ]

I figured out right when I started cavern diving that the GUE path was something I wanted to go down. I had big goals in diving (still do). The things I wanted to see and do eventually were quite lofty for a 17 year old kid just starting out. I still remember those days, and that's why the pricing thing grinds my gears so much. The large jump in price + the extra length of Fundaments makes even starting out with GUE unattainable to people who are in the same position I was 10 years ago.

If things 10 years ago were the way they are now, I wonder where I'd be?