Sport Chalet Instruction...new rules

[Kevrumbo]

<snip> In the same way, tables are not essential when it comes to dive planning and execution. In fact, since it appears that MOST divers eschew tables, it would be better to instruct them on something that they just might use. Whether this is up to my, yours or even Bob's standards remains to be seen. I am just glad that they are trying to find a solution to people who learn to dive only to abandon the tools taught to them.

Pete, tell that in person to my co-workers at the Catalina Hyperbaric Chamber; or my classmates, hard-hat divers in training and Dive Instructors at the College of Oceaneering (http://www.natpoly.edu/Programs/COO.html) about "eschewing" the Tables . . .I guarantee they'll look at you like you have an arse-hole in the middle of your forehead. . .

 

[Thalassamania]

Pete, tell that in person to my co-workers at the Catalina Hyperbaric Chamber; or my classmates, hard-hat divers in training and Dive Instructors at the College of Oceaneering (http://www.natpoly.edu/Programs/COO.html) about "eschewing" the Tables . . .I guarantee they'll look at you like you have an arse-hole in the middle of your forehead. . .

The fact that Professional and Recreational divers have differences concerning tables and computers should suprise no one. When's that last time you saw a guy on Sombero Reef wearing a Superlight? When's the last time you saw a guy wearing a Superlight with a BCD or a BP/W?

 

[The Chairman]

Mike,

You would have to get a PADI instructor to discuss the relative merits of the PADI system. Minimums will always be minimums. I would suggest that buoyancy control at the OW level is far ahead of what was taught in the 60s or 70s. It's not there are MORE people crawling over the reefs (% wise), it's that we are so much more aware that they shouldn't be doing that.

The reality of the situation: Divers rarely use tables. They are more likely to use computers. It's a better use of time to show them HOW to use these computers to their advantage rather than getting hung up on tables which they will probably lose or stuff onto some bookshelf.

The crux of this discussion is not whether Sports Chalet or anyone else has an adequate class. Rather it is on the efficacy of the reported policy change as it pertains to Joe Diver. I see this as a shift towards the real world, where few divers tolerate the use of tables. They either buy a computer or just do without.

I surely hope you don't mind me bringing this BACK to the OP.

 

[The Chairman]

Pete, tell that in person to my co-workers at the Catalina Hyperbaric Chamber; or my classmates, hard-hat divers in training and Dive Instructors at the College of Oceaneering (http://www.natpoly.edu/Programs/COO.html) about "eschewing" the Tables . . .I guarantee they'll look at you like you have an arse-hole in the middle of your forehead. . .

You prove my point. Many "professional" divers have an unrealistic view of tables and the recreational diving world. You are my evidence. Condescension and outright belligerence of a few proves nothing. If it will help, I will gladly write that on a table for your consumption.

 

[spectrum]

Pete, tell that in person to my co-workers at the Catalina Hyperbaric Chamber; or my classmates, hard-hat divers in training and Dive Instructors at the College of Oceaneering (http://www.natpoly.edu/Programs/COO.html) about "eschewing" the Tables . . .I guarantee they'll look at you like you have an arse-hole in the middle of your forehead. . .

The point I was making when taken in context is that there is a broad range of diving that gets nowhere near NDL limits. For many divers that is all they will ever do.

If they can't manage a safe ascent or get an undeserved hit that will happen with out without a computer. A computer is just another tool most useful for managing multilevel and sucessive dives.

Pete

 

[Kevrumbo]

You prove my point. Many "professional" divers have an unrealistic view of tables and the recreational diving world. You are my evidence. Condescension and outright belligerence of a few proves nothing. If it will help, I will gladly write that on a table for your consumption.

Pete, you've got an unqualified and unquantified opinion . . .(and a pretty weak bluff at that too: why don't you try & sell that one to the Navy as well??). On the contrary, we "Professional Divers" and Hyperbaric Technologists have got a very realistic view of the recreational diving world, because most of the serious DCS/AGE cases we treat in the Chamber are from the recreational diving world . . .

So then, for example, by analogy and logical extension of your reasoning: anybody who's a potential First Responder to a Cardiac Arrest Victim, should just use an AED (Automated External Defribillator) and just "eschew" the techniques and procedure of manual CPR . . ."the machine will just talk you through the process. . ."

 

[spectrum]

Now I'm confused, too many Pete's :11:

 

[Thalassamania]

There is a need for basic education on decompression theory in order to inform the diving public on the nature of the calculated risk involved in diving as a sport. It is a fact that every dive is a dive requiring decompression and that there are the familiar &#8220;dose-response&#8221; requirement which place greater restrictions on increased amounts of gas uptake in the tissues. A fundamental concept in safety awareness focuses on the requirement that the individual has sufficient knowledge to be able to understand &#8220;why&#8221; they should use care in interpreting the data for the dive computer. Knowing the limitations of the computer as well as the limitations of the diver becomes a common sense requirement for safe diving.

&#8211; Glen Egstrom

Bill Hamilton pointed out that why we&#8217;re really here (Dive Computer Workshop) is the search for more bottom time. You can also see how much struggle we had dancing around inside a box that&#8217;s pretty well fixed. There&#8217;s a way to make the box bigger by the only way left and that is oxygen.

&#8211; Mike Lang summarizing Bill Hamilton&#8217;s comments.

It is interesting to speculate about the present state of scuba diving if the Foxboro Decomputer Mark I had performed properly (i.e. the Bradner brothers had not mistaken compartment half-time values for bellows&#8217; time constants) and it had been adopted for U.S. Navy use in 1956. If so, the present U.S. Navy air decompression tables might not have been computed and the standard tool used to determine decompression status might have been a dive computer. Dive computer technology would be far more advanced, and more information and studies about the effects of multi-level diving would be available today.

&#8211; Karl Huggins

In that case we&#8217;d be diving computers today and arguing about whether tables are safe or not.

&#8211; Phil Sharkey

It is a poor carpenter who blames his tools. We should be concerned about the decrease in training programs that teach the &#8220;why&#8221; of things, We cannot expect the dives to understand the details of Dive Computers until they understand the physics and physiology, we should teach this without apology. They do not read instructions because the don&#8217;t think it is important, and they don&#8217;t read warnings because they don&#8217;t want to hear them. We have to do a better job of teaching, not only the details, but also the fact that there is risk involved, and that there are limitations. Currently our teaching fails to do this.

- Glen Egstrom

What kind of booger-eating-moron would make those kinds of dives?

- Ralph Osterhout.

Cave divers make those kind of dives all the time!

&#8211; Parker Turner.

 

[CompuDude]

The reality of the situation: Divers rarely use tables. They are more likely to use computers. It's a better use of time to show them HOW to use these computers to their advantage rather than getting hung up on tables which they will probably lose or stuff onto some bookshelf.

The crux of this discussion is not whether Sports Chalet or anyone else has an adequate class. Rather it is on the efficacy of the reported policy change as it pertains to Joe Diver. I see this as a shift towards the real world, where few divers tolerate the use of tables. They either buy a computer or just do without.

So let me get this straight: You are advocating a change for the entire diving world (well, at least those taught by S.C.), reducing the level of instruction to meet the lowest common denominator?

Just because "no one uses those old things anymore" doesn't mean there is no merit to learning them, and many here, myself included, strongly feel that simply knowing about them truly adds a small measure of basic safety to a diver's toolchest. Whether or not they choose to utilize those tools is another consideration entirely.

I fail to see how a cheap plastic (and fragile) calculator is a superior tool for today's diving environment than a sturdy plastic table that is nearly indestructible. (Not saying they can't be broken, but broken so badly they can no longer be used at all is a lot harder.) If Sport Chalet decided to teach actual hands-on computer usage, that would be another thing. But as I understand it, the eRPD is a cheap yet more expensive, electronic version of a table, that really doesn't do much other than electrify the table in question so it is "easier" to use, mostly because it no longer requires the ability to add and subtract simple, small numbers. This is... better?

 

[The Chairman]

Pete, you've got an unqualified and unquantified opinion

No more than your's my friend. No more than yours. You have yet to produce any substantive evidence, relying on your less than subtle "charm" to badger me into submission. Your appeal to some amorphic authority without any empiricism only shows your propensity to over simplify with little to no thoughtful analysis. That, or you simply like writing the word "arse".

You only see the unlucky "<%1". From this you extrapolate to ALL recreational divers? I asked earlier what percentage of those divers came in with tables in hand? You have yet to answer such a simple query. Or do you surmise, by the dearth of tables, that the only "safe diver" is the one who uses tables? Pergamentum init, exit pergamentum.