Sport Chalet Instruction...new rules

[MXGratefulDiver]

But this is about Sport Chalet's decision on tables. I honestly agree with them and don't see this as "dumbing down" the instruction, but rather that it makes it more useful and contemporary.

Frankly, I haven't seen enough information on their decision to make that dermination ... it will depend entirely on how they choose to teach using the dive computer. And that presentation can vary wildly and still fall within training agency "standards".

If it proves to be nothing more than a sales pitch for whatever computer they happen to be selling, then it's useless. If the instructor does nothing more than explain how to "read" the information the computer is providing, it will have limited value ... and the student will lose the conceptual information provided by working tables. If it provides practical exercises in multilevel, multdive planning, then it will do what you claim it should do. But we really don't know whether it will be the former, the latter, or somewhere in between. As with most subjects, I suppose it will depend pretty much on the instructor ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MikeFerrara]

I fix them all the time, including mine. Best you hold off on driving until you learn the technology Mike. They're just not teaching drivers the way they used to. Hardly anyone is fit to drive anymore.

I don't know about that but it appears that I must hold off on driving until the auto industry learns the technology because my truck is broke again. LOL

They don't need to understand points to fix them. Our friend indicated that HE KNEW just how a condensor works with the points, and I would challenge him to post that here or to PM me his explanation. Odds are he only THINKS he understands points, just like students only THINK they understand decompression theory after assimilating all the rules to run tables. Bull crap. Students are just trying to figure out how to pass the class.

I understand condensors and points pretty well. Condensor is a stupid name for it isn't it? It's a capacitor. The coil/inductor (in this case since there is both a primary and a secondary so it's more of a transformer) resists changes in current. The capacitor (condensor) resists changes in voltage. The secondary of the coil/transformer provides the high voltage needed to get an arc at the spark plug. The points close the circuit that "charges" the primary of the coil. The cap (condensor if you insist) which is across the points resists changes in voltage, thus preventing or reducing an arc across the points. In so doing it both protects the points and insures adequate voltage at the spark plug to get the spark needed.

This is about as simple as they come as far as LC or RLC circuits go. Try some filters if you want hard (at least they can be hard for me). If your arguement is that it's too much for auto mechanics, you're just proving my point. LOL they don't need any more to confuse them. It's a fantastic example of what happens when you skip the basics.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Because dive tables are just as cumbersome and obsolete for the vast majority of divers. A table is a tool, just like a computer. You are allowed to hold on to your tools of antiquity, just don't expect the rest of the world to march to your drummer. Many divers have already grown tired of tables and even though they can not afford a computer they have still rejected tables.

Well that's where we disagree. I don't think tables are at all cumbersome and they sure aren't as cumbersome as the menues of some of the computers.

I don't care who marches to my drummer but some in dive instruction are sure trying to see that others march to theirs by what they don't teach as much as by what they do teach. Aren't they?

 

[Kev's First Mate]

I just got a memo from sport chalet corporate. looks like the instructors are going to stop teaching the dive tables now. all students will learn to dive using a computer and the rdp.

i think its stupid, and so does almost everyone that works at my sport chalet including the instructors...what do you think. one of our dm's said that no one dives without a computer now so what is the point of teaching someone a lost art.

I am a divemaster candidate and personally do not believe that dive tables are a lost art. There are people that dive without a computer. My husband and I were in the rental program at our LDS, and there were times that we received regulators that did not have computers attached. So what did we do?? We used our dive tables and were still able to dive!! Even though we now have our own equipment, including dive computers, we still refer to the tables to stay refreshed in their use just in case our computers should happen to fail.

 

[The Chairman]

Very close Mike and I am impressed. The condenser, which is indeed a capacitor, lets the magnetic feild collapse a bit more slowly, which makes the spark last a bit longer thus insuring ignition. Easily seen on an oscilloscope, this voltage decay tells us a LOT about the health of the points/condenser
partnership.

But points, like tables are not essential to an internal combustion engine. There are several versions of electronic ignition, including those with distributors, distributorless (coil pack), hall effect, optical and the list can go on.

What is essential to a gasoline internal combustion engine running? I suggest three things: adequate compression, an appropriate mix of fuel and air, and of course, a properly timed spark.

In the same way, tables are not essential when it comes to dive planning and execution. In fact, since it appears that MOST divers eschew tables, it would be better to instruct them on something that they just might use. Whether this is up to my, yours or even Bob's standards remains to be seen. I am just glad that they are trying to find a solution to people who learn to dive only to abandon the tools taught to them.

 

[The Chairman]

Well that's where we disagree. I don't think tables are at all cumbersome and they sure aren't as cumbersome as the menues of some of the computers.

They just aren't used after the class. For whatever reason, they are relegated to the bookshelf for most divers. There are exceptions and even notable ones. BTW, after enduring Suunto for so long, I am glad that I finally found an intuitive menu in Oceanic. By far the easiest computer to learn and to teach. All of my student gear comes equipped with the VEO 250.

 

[MikeFerrara]

No Mike, it's how you paint the entire cadre of instructors. I am not the only who seems to think that you indeed believe this. If you continually cry "Wolf", don't be surprised that others begin to ignore it.No Mike, you don't usually propose a solution. I can't recall one instance where you have done so. Please don't expect me to go research YOU on this board. If you contend that you always post a solution, then fine: so be it. I simply can't recall a single one. I especially don't see where you have presented a solution in this thread. Do you?

You don't recall seeing me propose solutions to common skill problems on this board. I think you are not telling the truth and I think that it's intentional.

Again, I stress hoe often I've said that instructors do what they're taught to do. Usually they do it to the best of their ability. What I see as a problem is in the standards. that's an agency thing. Are you now going to say that you've never read that opinion from me? In your free time do a search to see how wrong you are.

You may not be the only one but there are those on the other side. Over the years I've swapped ideas with an awful lot of instructors and divers on this board. Many of us described our approaches and techniques in great and lengthy detail. In fact, I have described my whole open water course on many occasions in great detail. I've adopted techniques of others and a few have put some of mine into practice (most of which I took from someone else, BTW).

I don't expect you to research anything UNLESS you are going to make statements about it. In that case you should research it. Unless, of course, you prefer to just keep making things up.

The solution in this thread that I would propose is simple...introduce your students to tables as well as computers. That's not so hard is it? even the old PADI OW texts do that much.

But this is about Sport Chalet's decision on tables. I honestly agree with them and don't see this as "dumbing down" the instruction, but rather that it makes it more useful and contemporary.

From what I've heard of their decision, I disagree with it. I do see it as a dumming down. The problem is that I should know better than to disagree with you.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

I think it's pretty clear that there are groups on both sides of the table.


What we have to remember is no matter where you sit, you can still eat.

 

[Thalassamania]

From what I've heard of their decision, I disagree with it. I do see it as a dumming down. The problem is that I should know better than to disagree with you.

With all due respect Mike, and you know that we see eye to eye on most training issues, there is not way to tell how dumb it is without seeing it in context, it maybe (though I doubt it) a boon that breaks loose more time which makes for a enhanced module on decompression theory. We need to wait and see. Table or computer, they're the same thing, just different ways to display ascent plans.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

By far the easiest computer to learn and to teach.

Pete ... can you describe what and how you teach this subject?

All of my student gear comes equipped with the VEO 250.

But the $64 question remains ... do your students leave your class prepared to understand not just how to use the computer, but how to interpret the data it is giving them?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)